You are directly contradicting yourself just few comments apart.
Why is it okay for you to deduce Su30SM2 performance from third party sources/opinions, but I cannot comment on performance of Tomcats based of global data as well as my experience playing against it?
Like I said everyone knew those planes where gonna be beast it’s not that hard to comprehend great missiles load out and good fm with good radar simply understanding that they gonna have a good advantage against most 13.0 planes. the f15A suffering is just in the same boat with f14B I’m not denying that witch is why most people try get the reworks for vehicles most people want to see not vehicles be artificially nerfed/model wrong
Explain why.
I divided the planes by function.
Theres no reason you need to fight an A-10 with your MiG-29, or go with a pure Sidewinder Carrier into 13.3.
The 12.0 BR is pure CBT as of now as far as I can see.
Like what is the point of moving stuff up, if you dont need to ?
You could also just put some thought into it and just use the empty BRs that have like 4 planes
Tornado, F111, Su24, A-10. That is 90% of the 11.7 BR (not counting the prems)
The difference is with these planes to their 10.7 counterparts are just the guided ground munitions and slightly better Fox2’s.
How viable are those guided bombs in ARB anyway?
Well i didnt just talk about my own personal experience here.
Personally i only bring like 20 chaff when flying the F14, i think i got the notching pretty well down.
But that dosnt make the CMs any better, it just means I adapted.
The issue here is, these stats dont actually tell us a lot, if we dont know which timeframe they are made up from.
You used to be able to just farm the F4S noobs in every game with all the F14’s, easily granting you 5-7 kills per game, which arnt that present anymore since Gaijin added top tier premium jets.
Compression dont really matter, if you compress planes that perform similarly in ARB.
You make it sound like im demanding the Rafale to go down or something.
Also kinda going past reality, the ViggenDI wont be doing BVR with its measly energy gain.
Like you said an Aim-7 launched a Mach 1.6 will be more deadly, than an aim-120 that’ll lose all its energy at the 15km mark already.
It was not to criticize the chart, I did my tests above without target velocity aswell, cause it dosnt matter. But to emphasize that you gotta do more in an actual game than to press a button in order for the missile to hit.
Just going sideways isnt notching.
And my amraams have definetly killed people already that were flying sideways and away from me without needing me to guide them in, but maybe im just that special.
Cant say the same about the Phoenix though.
Well it literally sais 10k at the bottom of your chart and the missile impacts a wee bit further. So i went by that.
How would I know that anyone just uses freedom units randomly.
But thats on me.
I couldnt recreate during testing, the amraam doing that 70° turn at the height of the loft.
Yeah, the alt difference was for testing the time-till-target; i did do the test at 30km aswell, as 37kms
I even did it with the same alt and the difference was only 3 seconds.
Still didnt look like your chart idk.
Yeah, i dont know if you understand, what I was getting at.
I wasnt trying to argue that the amraam is better at long range.
I was making a point, that shooting the Phoenix at long range dosnt actually make you fly any safer, because youre still getting into the WEZ regardless, especially if you wanna fire multiple missiles at the same time.
It is usually the case that planes with better kit sit at higher BRs. By moving planes down to meet planes with lower BRs and thus worse kit is bad because now the planes with worse kit will suffer whereas planes with better kit will stomp.
By having more BRs to move things around, you can place aircrafts not by their role, but by their actual performance, and can create actual divides, such as 12.0 Phantoms not having to see 13.0 legacy ARH carriers other than Tomcat; so on so forth.
Its hard to give a concrete example since you want to move bunch of stuff down at once which changes the dynamics a whole lot and honestly does not make a lick of sense; you are effectively torpedoing efforts of the entire community for the past few years to raise the max BR and decompress the game as a whole because…why exactly?
I will however highlight one specific example:
At 12.0, F-16A could meet MiG-21bis in full downtier. I remember when thatwas the case on F-16s release.
If you insist that this matchup would be fine, I invite you to test that assumption in custom battles.
what do you mean “dont need to” lol.
AESA Typhoons are sitting at the same BR as normal Typhoons. You cant exactly move the standard typhoons down to 14.0 because you would be, again, compressing.
Im almost afraid to ask what exactly would you put at 11.7.
This is absolutely anecdotal on your part.
If you bring more flares than chaff for BVR plane thats already an indication you have troubles with positioning and youre getting too close.
I beg your pardon?
I even stated outright that these were december 2025 data.
I sincerely do hope you are not trolling.
You might as well be asking for that, seeing that previous large scale compression you hinted at.
With each passing sentence of your response I am getting stronger feeling you are trolling.
Gripen A will never do a BVR with Skyflashes because these are 11.3 missile (since they are just DF sparrows just IRL with different seeker which does not affect how they act in game); and are by many people whos opinion I value to be terrible for a 12.0 UK Phantoms - letalone at 13.0 Gripen were talking about.
Thus what I said still stands - JA37Di is better BVR platform than Gripen A.
Do not misquote me. I said that even sparrow launched at mach 1.6 can be deadly, not that it will be more deadly than AMRAAM.
JA37Di is perfectly capable as 13.0 of reaching high speeds and alts neccesary for succesfull AMRAAM launches for.
That is if JA37Di actually bothers to climb and does not gimp itself by hugging the deck.
…and what is exactly notching then, if not keeping enemy radar source directly at your 90°?
That could have been IOG, if they dont change their flight path while in notch.
Camera issues.
Camera issues due to how much I zoomed in on the impact point.
Phoenix can be launched much earlier (at longer range) than AMRAAM, meaning that while F-14 guiding the Phoenix all the way in will get into enemy WEZ, the enemy can only launch AMRAAM on IOG and hope for the best; or risk getting smacked by Phoenix.
One flaw your previous assumptions had was
You dont have to fly directly at the enemy. You can keep guiding the missile keeping the target at the very edge of the radar gimbal limit. Its called cranking.
In case of Tomcats HDN radar, all you need is enemy coming towards your radar.
It’d be awful as I stated before.
You shouldn’t troll
You are exaggerating the phoenix’s speed greatly, underplaying the amraam’s capability to accelerate faster, and assuming the amraam launcher also isn’t cranking
And also not even touching on the massive gap in ease to decoy lol
Not exaggerating Phoenix speed nor underplaying AMRAAMS acceleration. The long range of Phoenix comes from its sustainer, which is more powerfull than that of an AMRAAM.
According to this chart, at 20km mark, AMRAAM is going M0.95, whereas AIM-54C is going M1.63.
Thus I absolutely stand by all Ive said previously - Phoenix, and by extension Tomcat, has advantage in long range BVR joust against AMRAAM, solely by going on off missile performance.
AMRAAMs acceleration, as well as higher G pull, will come into play at shorter ranges.
Yes, for the purpose of this demonstration Im assuming no defensive manuevers take place. Nor Im looking at launching platform which will obviously be different from Tomcat since Tomcats we have in game cant carry AMRAAMs. Nor Im looking at differences in radars.
I merely wanted to demonstrate the range differences, thus all launches were simulated from 0kmh speed against 0kmh target.
I am aware, however if both targets crank and fire at similar times, the amraam is going to be in pitbull before the amraam user is forced to notch and lose datalink. And even if it doesn’t, which it should, the IOG will likely pick the F-14 back up anyway
11.7 XD
Anything is better than what is in game rn. 12.7 with r60s but 2 good missiles isnt fun at all vs 13.7 lobbies. Wouldnt mind if its rough with smooth, uptier/ down. But its not, you can play all night and not see 11.7.
Also f14a needs 9Ls. f14b 9Ms and keep current BRs, this is a no brainer.
current 12.7 state is superior to 12.3 with 6 R-60Ms
Think it needs to go lower. 12.3 with fox 1- not 27ers
Or 12.0/ 11.7 with just fox 3s
TBH the game is just funked. The jump from 12.7 to 13.0 is massive
The Aim-54 Phoenix doesn’t have a sustainer. You mean the Fakour-90.
Well yes, you are correct, but any such scenario is player dependent and thus needs to be looked on case by case basis.
It is entirely possible that both Tomcat and the enemy can make fatal mistakes which will be exploited by the other player. It is entirely possible that both players will be unable to execute defensinve manuever properly.
Ive said this in one of my previous comments in different thread - player skill needs to be removed from any such discussion, since “X plane wins as long as it does Y” is nice, but not always will X plane be in position where it can do Y. You would wipe the floor with me in 1v1 scenario even if you were flying something like MiG-21bis and I was flying F-16A. But that wouldnt make the MiG-21bis just as good as F-16A, no?
Whats worse, this is entirely 1v1 comparison, which completly overlooks the other 15 players in the Tomcat team and other 15 players in the enemy team.
Which brings me back to one of my earlier points - and that is to look at global data. And going off by the december 2025 data, every Tomcat (even the 12.7 one) has better KD than, say F-15A. And IRIAF has better KD than F-15C MSIP.
huh. No I meant phoenixes but now that I am looking at the missile datasheet, youre right.
You can do only r27r and it would be fine at 12.3, r-60m only is a death sentence
If they just add the AIM-7P to the F-14B it would be much better.
F-16A also just get demolished in an uptier when they’re fighting against ARHs, additionally you can argue, that even the MiG-23 has a better kit, which dosnt get assblasted by Su-33’s.
So you dont want to sort planes by performance in this individual instance, but instead by role?
This is literally what I meant with, you just wanna decompress for the sake of it.
That question was already answered
Its not anectdotal, if everyone who actually flies the plane will tell you the same.
You are free to try and get Multikills from 40+ km’s if you think thats so feasible.
But it only happens if the Enemy is purposefully helping you. i.e. flying in formation or smth like that.
Or… Idk, maybe im not just flying sideways spamming all my chaff out?
Then lets work with it:
According to the December stats the F15A and F14A only differ by 0.2 in terms of Kills Per Spawn, with the F-14 being around 0.8 Kills per Spawn. Which is a negative Value.
Its (already sinking) K/D, can therefor only be due to freak games skewing the data, where some people get 10 kills or the like.
The only F-14 that actually gets at least 1 Kill per game is the IRIAF.
Even the 12.0 Viggen is supposedly better than the F14’s, when going by those stats.
Are we supposed to move that Viggen higher than the F15A now, or what is it supposed to tell us, if we’re not allowed to compress?
Another piece of Evidence that compression is just a boogie-word at this point.
Now I think you must be trolling.
Your first chart dosnt actually tell us again the important information
Your second chart literally supports the same argument I made, that the Viggen is too slow to be competitive at climbing.
Regardless, I dont think anyone really needs to see a direct performance comparison between the Aim-7 and the Aim-120A. The Aim-120 has more range, like duh.
The interesting part is, that the Aim-7 launched from an F15 can be just as fast as the Aim-120 launched from the Viggen, for the first 12Km or so.
So given the F-15 is better at positioning it’ll have an advantage in BVR.
Quotes usually happen within quotation marks.
And Idk whats supposed to be so mind boggling about a faster plane being able to capitalize more on its missiles.
The Viggen is notorious for being slow and your previous test already showed that the aim-120a is awfull without any initial velocity.
I think the question should’ve been instead “what is going sideways”.
Or maybe they were just not fully notching?
Its kinda besides the point anyway, that the Phoenix family is the only air-to-air missile with an HDN radar (afaik)
Even if the target turns back into the beam, most of the times the missile will not recognize them anymore.
The Phoenix will roughly double its flight time per 10kms launched above 30kms.
You dont wanna have to guide in the missile for 80 seconds or more, you would want to keep that time as low as possible.
That still makes you fly relatively towards the target, aswell as the rest of the enemy team.
And while you’re cranking, the Target Aircraft won’t even need to do much to get into the bad angle of the HDN.
45° turns on their end would already suffice on most maps to throw both the F14 and the Phoenix’ radar off.
If we were talking about the Fakour-90, then yeah, you can easily guide your missiles in with those extra 20km range, without risking your life, or that the missile will just be a glorified rock on arrival.
But the Phoenix isnt that forgiving.
only in BVR, merge happens and anything that isnt gripen dies by F-16A firmly implanting a 20mm burst into the enemy pilots cranium.
yeah and move them where from 11.0? Down to 10.7? So now can Hunter F.6 meet MiG-21bis? Oh I know why dont we move the Hunter F.6 down as well…are you seeing the issue with compresion?
Where is the line at which this compression stops? As soon as you start moving 1.3 planes down to 1.0? Or trying to move reserves even lower?
At one point, youre going to run out of BRs if all you do is move stuff down.
Im sorry but how do you get that I dont want to sort planes by performance by saying that Typhoon and AESA Typhoon shouldnt sit at the same BR due to AESA Typhoon having much better radar?
How do you get I want to sort the plane by their role when im clearly talking about difference in capabilities???
Thats ad populum fallacy.
If you fail to notch properly its rarely issue of the aircraft.
That is unreliable statistic tho.
If I play three games, get 5 kills 0 deaths in the first one, im sitting at KD of 5; but if my next two games are full uptiers where I only get assist/manage to surive with 0 kills 0 deaths, my kill per spawn is now much lower, even if I did nothing wrong (surviving in inferior aircraft) and im still sitting at KD of 5.
Thast completly baseless assumption to which you have zero evidence.
That your assumption is either imperfect, or based on wrong interpretation of the data.
What evidence? Im questioning your intent behind your call for compression, because theres numerous thing with that at elementary level; ones you ignore either unintetionally or intentionally.
And if intentionally I have nothing more to say to you.
How am I trolling?
Gripen A will never do BVR with Skyflashes at 13.0.
Thats the fact.
Skyflashes arent 7M equivalents. They are 7E-2 equivalent.
Thats why F-15A is different. Because the 7Ms actually have performance to do BVR at 13.0. Not great, but its proped up by F-15As FM.
If F-15A going 1447km/h fires both Skyflash (DF) and 7M, Skyflash will reach 17km by the time the onboard battery gives out; whereas 7M will reach 24km in that same time window.
Obviously plane with better FM will have advantage in positioning. Nonetheless Vigen can just fire AMRAAM towards F-15A and then start defending. F-15A now has to either lose the missile and start defending as well, or commit to guiding the Sparrow and risk eating AMRAAM into the face.
As I was flying out the F-15A recently, and im not doing terribly, I can safely say that commiting to guiding Sparrow in such scenario leads to death in 99% of the cases.
Sorry, but thats complete fabulation on your part. Phoenix seeker is CW. If you were to say that Phoenix seeker is CW whereas AMRAAMs is PD you would be correct, but Phoenix seeker certainly isnt HDN.
If anything CW gives them slight advantage against notching target while making them more susceptible to chaff at certain angles and velocities.
You do realize AMRAAMs have the exact same issue?
AN/AWG-9 has horizontal limit of 130°, it means it can scan or track targets located up to 75° to either side of the Tomcat. And 75° is much closer to 90° than it is to 0°.
Even if you take 5° reserve, youre tracking the target at 70° angle.
I made my opinion in new BR change now.
