Yeah im still thinking for the december update
- The rush to push the F-15 out was intense enough that they decided it wasnt necessary initially.
- The proliferation of CMs was relatively limited at the time, and as stated elsewhere the F-15 was built to shoot first.
- The group of penny pinching self righteous morons known as the “Fighter Mafia” who tampered with the development, they didnt see CMs as necessary.
The F-15 had the space for CMs and with the MSIP program they received them, which is enough for in game purposes. However I have heard rumors of a jury rigged AN/ALE-45, being mounted to the AIM-9 pylons, unfortunately no hard proof has surfaced.
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So there seems to be a lot of discussion lately about the F-15 being an AoA monster. We should put that to rest, people think that the cockpit units are true AoA. They are not. 30 units in the cockpit is only equivalent to about 18-19 degrees true AoA for example. Wing rock (un-commanded rolling moments when pulling AoA) begins to occur and becomes problematic at just 23 degrees true AoA. The F-15 seems to be worse in the one-circle department than the MiG-23MLD which can handle 33 degrees local (26-28 degrees true).
Overall, people think it will outperform what is currently in the tech tree, in reality it will be closer to the performance of the F-14 and seem like a side-grade to the F-16 if anything imo. (And truthfully, it will just be variety to pick between F-14/15/16). The only thing that could stand it apart is the AMRAAM, which the F-16C-50 will now already be able to carry.
That doesn’t factor in lift, you can compare the turn graphs to get an idea of the turn performance.
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I’m just talking about controllability at such AoA, where the MiG-23MLD would be the winner. If we look at sustained turns, climb rate, overall flight performance it’s obvious the F-15 would win that fight all day long. Just to compare it to something we have in the game, the MLD and MiG-29 should both be more controllable than the F-15 at AoA > 20 degrees. (Thus showing it’s not much of an AoA monster).
In fact, the FBW of the F-16 should allow carefree handling up to around 25 degrees AoA when the F-15 would be struggling with un-commanded rolling moments. Even the F-16 (properly modeled) would give the F-15 a real fight in the one circle.
Doesn’t appear to be the case:
Clean + ≈60% - NATO
Clean + ≈60% Fuel - 29G
F-15C - M0.2 - 14 Deg/s
F-16C - M0.2 - 10 Deg/s
MIG-29G - M0.2 - N/A
F-15C - M0.3 - 2.9G’s - 16.5 Deg/s
F-16C - M0.3 - 2.8G’s - 15.75 Deg/s
MIG-29G - M0.3 - 3.2G’s
F-15C - M0.4 - 4.2G’s 17.5 Deg/s
F-16C - M0.4 - 4.8G’s - 19.8 Deg/s
MIG-29G - M0.4 - 4.3G’s
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Where does this come from?
Nvm found it. At M0.2 the F16C thats for an empty fuel F16 and its outside the cat 1 limiter. While the figure for the F15 is for 7500 lbs (55.5% internal), not clean. Clean it woukd be higher. AoA figures given by 23 sound good.
Tests done at 20kft by F15D
The info given by you and AoA info on the F-15 indicate it should have a higher lift coefficient than F16 so no need to pull lots of AoA imo. It can be closer to the max in the L/D curve.
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Are “units” in your source local or true AoA? It looks to be speaking to “true” AoA but says “units”… this is part of the confusion I was discussing.
I’ll read the document completely(tomorrow) to see if data comes from the ADC or just looking at instrument. I’m looking at the -1 and AoA instrument uses the 2 probes at each side of the front fuselage, measuring local AoA. Interestingly the ADC(air data computer) seems to convert that to True AoA for the lead computing gyro, central computer and True AoA is shown on hud when landing gear is down. AoA instrument shows local.
On flight characteristics section.
Departures should not be encountered below 30 units AOA at any altitude, airspeed or loading. The aircraft is resistant to departure at lower altitudes. Above 30 units AOA, external stores or asymmetry increases the departure susceptibility
The aircraft exhibits a slight reduced directional stability (yaw) in the 0.50 to 0.76 Mach and 40-44 units AOA region. In this region, departure resistance is decreased and spin susceptibility is increased. If controls are neutralized at the first indication of departure(large uncommanded roll or yaw), the aircraft will recover immediately. Even though the aircraft exhibits high directional stability, large lateral asymmetries can cause the aircraft to quickly enter a spin if not promptly recovered from a departure
A symmetrically loaded aircraft in this region will usually exhibit one or more classic signs of an impeding stall, such as wing rock(it may only be one) or yaw excursions.
I have seen 4 different formulas from degrees to AoA units on the F15. So dunno
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It’s an interesting discussion to be had before the F-15 gets here. Need to handle our expectations so when it’s not an AoA monster people aren’t surprised Pikachu face cuz it doesn’t match DCS
AoA(units) = AoA(°) + 10
40-45 AoA units before departure
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Well, in level vertical pull-up scenario. When there is banking involved the forces of gravity and other conditions cause premature departure. In the F-15, it seems this is a bigger discrepancy than for aircraft like MiG-29… since MiG-29 can pull quite a lot of AoA in a turn whereas F-15 seems to suffer from lateral motions more.
No. If you look on the charts above. The wing rock excursions (70° bank) were in a less amount (±12°) than a 1g(level flight) stall(25°) and was pulling up to 40units.
And for 10° and 30°
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Is that not more than the MiG-29? MiG-29 can pull quite a lot more AoA than that, with stability during a bank iirc.
I have no serious knowledge on the mig 29 besides its radar so I can’t tell.
But there’a wing rock. Yaw starts to be in the 40 unit range at low speeds
I’d have to dig for a bit since I can’t read Russian but ultimately I think I have furthered my point and you’ve validated it well enough. The F-15 is not some AoA monster.
F-15 is not an AoA monster
Ofc not but 30°-35° is still quite a thing
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With a high level of buffet, wing rock, would not be able to really pull the nose to shoot someone like that. Quite a hail mary… and I don’t think it will come with AIM-9X so there will be little ability to do that while scissoring and little reason to do so when you have the high T/W and energy capacity… Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. On the same note, the MiG-23 can pull similar AoA just fine, doesn’t make it usable in the one circle against say a Kfir or M2K.
People make the F-15 out to be this one circle fighting king and superior to the Tomcat in that regard (due to DCS) when in reality, the Tomcat has better high alpha.
12° wing rock doesn’t sound too bad, had worse in the F4E. Just let the stick go like the manual states and voila. And you can see the trend for wing rock ° to decrease when bank angle increases per AoA unit. Thats a one time trick. But it has its merrit, high TWR will help it to just hang. I have never really depended on AoA in a fight. At high altitudes the high AoA helps
I don’t really think max AoA is the ultimate performance shit to die on. If you are pulling AoA you are a sitting duck eitherway.
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That’s another good point, I get stuck on a specific performance metric when discussing stuff sometimes. Good to look at the big picture of things.