Do you think the Super 530F is overdue for a tracking buff?

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
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  • Yes
  • No
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This missile is an absolute embarrassment. Its tracking is so bad that it’s on par with the AIM-7D at this point. One chaff pull and it loses track immediately. I’ve seen it lose track within 3 km of an aircraft flying fairly straight and level. Achieving a 10% kill rate is a miracle.

Even when I get the drop on an enemy I’m still outclassed. One time I was on the tail of an F-18 completely unaware of me flying at 5000m and silhouetted against clear sky. Fired at 3 km. It goes off to the side for no reason at all. Fired my second missile. This time he sees it, DOESN’T EVEN DROP CHAFF, and the missile still loses track. He turns around, fires an AIM-7M as I’m trying to desperately close within range for a Magic 2 shot and smokes me.

Despite this kind of abysmal performance, it’s the only SARH option for 12.0 platforms like the Mirage F1C and stock Mirage 2000Cs. How is this pos missile at 12.0 when it’s dogshit even for 11.3??? The Super 530F has absolutely no business being the only and/or stock SARH missile for 12+ jets especially the F1C which already has a terrible radar and RWR. This leaves a pair of Magic 2s as its only viable weapon. The cannon would’ve been good if gaijin’s incompetence hadn’t made cannon shells useless because of the HE nerf that still hasn’t been fixed. So even in a 0.7 uptier, you’re going up against AIM-7M/F/P and the R-27ER/R all of which are infinitely better when it comes to tracking and on far better platforms with much better PD radar that can see you coming and lock you up long before you see them. Not to mention that many of them can carry more than two SARH missiles.

Before any of you jokers try to claim, “Oh but the F1C has a bazillion CMs”, last I checked, chaff and flares aren’t QUITE as good at shooting down aircraft as effective radar missiles.

Bottom line: Buff the tracking on the Super 530Fs to the level of the AIM-7F or at least the AIM-7E-2(DF).

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Its funny how bad the 530f is, like i dont even equip it in the mirage f1, the ir matra 530 is somehow more effective that that thing and is so funny

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how can you tell

but it wasnt at that level

while the 530F may have had some filtering it only had a pulse seeker which are not good

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Weird thing is that in Sim the 530f behaves as it should, even ignoring chaff in some cases and ofc being a pulse missile not giving the enemy a hardlock on rwr.

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Checked the replay.

Fine then allow it to carry 4 Magic 2s. It has no business having only half its missile loadout being good at 12.0 or keep the existing loadout and bring it down to 11.7. In any case I can understand it being vulnerable when chaffed but it’s so awful that even without chaff deployed, it refuses to track most of the time

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if you can find a source saying that it can do that then go ahead and make a bug report

the 12.0 is based on peoples ability to use the 2 magic 2s and not much else, as long as its performing well (economically) it will stay at 12.0

plus magic 2s on an actual fighter are at about worth that

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530E is a dogfigthing missile because it’s so slow it just follows the plane no matter how hard of a maneuver it does. Like it’s dogfighting it. Super funny missile.

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The 530F is bad because of its inherent, realistic properties that can’t be changed. They can’t change that it goes for chaff, because that’s how it works… you also would receive a BR raise for any aircraft carrying a 530F that receives this buff as they are all in questionable states as is with the magic 2.

This is also ahistorical… do you know what game you’re playing? This isn’t WoT. You don’t get to just demand ahistorical changes. It doesn’t work that way.

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No it’s not? Considering that even a 0.3 uptier has it facing uptiers against fighters with vastly superior missile loadouts, RWR and radar.

Then what about the fact that it loses track even when zero chaff is deployed? This missile has tracking abilities on par with the AIM-7D. At 12.0. Even against a F-4S, in a head on you’re instantly on the defensive since you’re too busy dodging Sparrows to work your way into a favorable firing position. Every engagement in a head on gives the advantage to SARH equipped fighters. A sustained dogfight at this BR range is an invitation to be third partied even with a maneuverability advantage.

Do you bother reading an entire reply or just cherry pick the parts you respond to that give you the illusion of being intelligent? I clearly mentioned that if that’s not an option then it needs to go down to 11.7. It can go for chaff as before but it shouldn’t lose track so often. Having only two good IR missiles with terrible radar and RWR doesn’t make a 12.0 aircraft.

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yeah it kinda is, 11.7 is too low for magic 2s on a good airframe, the fact you fight planes like f18a is a compression issue, though its still not that bad
if used correctly 2 magic 2s is 2 free kills, and theyre arguably easier to use that aim7f or aim7p

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They’re free kills only in a rear side or rear aspect not the front unless your target forgets to flare. The AIM-7P/F/M, R-27ER/R and even the R-24R can kill you in every aspect. Almost every single engagement will be a head on or the initiative will belong to the enemy since most of the ones you face will have TWS that can pick you up and fire long before you ever see them. The former two missiles, most of the time, come on platforms that have far superior radar.

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You would have to show an example of this happening for me to comment.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean, the F-4S is a better jet for SARH jousts. That is obvious even with a buff to the 530F

You’re not meant to be missile jousting with the 530F. It’s only purpose atm is to get sneak shots on enemy players not paying attention since crucially, the Mirage F1 and the 530F do not set off launch warnings on enemy RWR, only lock. Thereefore, you can lock very early, hold it for a long time before firing to make them think you’re not going to, then fire when they presumably aren’t looking.

Your post did not give me the impression the part about dropping to 11.7 was due to being unable to do the 4 magic 2 part. You just said

With this in mind, you ought to tone down the aggression…

Further, it would not go to 11.7 even under current state as it does well at 12.0. FURTHER, if it DID receive 4x magic 2, it would instantly go up to 12.3 as this is a loadout even the Mirage 2K’s do not get. (This should clue you in as to how historical this change would be, aka, its not happening.)

The Mirage F1 would be 12.0 even if all it had were 2 magic 2s as its full missile load. You are greatly underselling how free the magic 2s make kills.

This is extremely easy to acquire.

With much more difficulty, with many more stipulations. Please don’t pretend that the magic 2s mounted on your plane aren’t simply two free kills, and I mean free, because that’s often what they equate out to. Painless, skilless, click 2 buttons, free kill missiles.

At higher battle ratings, yes.

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i mean your peers dont really have a good radar (mig23ml and f4s are about as limited at finding targets as you are), and also this is why pyrenees, afghanistan and to a lesser extent vietnam and city are the only good airRB maps, cause there is actual terrain unlike on smolensk, denmark, moscow and sinai

ive already said that 12.3-12.7 has compression problems which is why the f18s arent all higher BRs so i wont really talk more about them, but if basically everything at 13.0 and above went up one step it would allow the f18s and some other things to go up and give 11.3-12.0 some breathing room

radar missiles also have weaknesses, sparrows and r24s are pretty easy to dodge in headons if you have speed (barrel roll), also r27ers are kinda irrelevant because theyre like the most free kill missile ever added to the game at some ranges.

youre giving su27s and mig29s way too much credit

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Except that the nature of air RB at those BRs dictates that you’re almost always in situations where missile jousts at range dictate the terms of the opening engagement. The Magic 2 is a defensive short range IR missile whereas the later AIM-7s allow you to attack first and with more of them. Your options are severely limited when your opponent outranges you considerably with far more reliable weapons at the start of an engagement.

This is fine for sim but how does this help in air RB? Unless your enemy is blind, deaf and dumb this is irrelevant.

I said reply not post, specifically:

Your first comment here was in response to my reply to Circleati.

No I’m not. The Magic 2s are free kills only in the rear side or side aspect. They’re easy to flare in the front which again is how most of your dogfights will start thanks to the bad radar preventing you from positioning yourself properly. Or you’re forced to depend on luck and hope that you find yourself in a favorable position by accident against fighters with better detection capabilities.

Only 0.3 higher which end up being the majority of your battles. So yes, it is overtiered.

It doesn’t matter since when you both spot each other visually, the initiative belongs to them instantly thanks to their much better missiles while you’re forced to close in for a kill.

Assuming this happens consistently, the instant you barrel roll, you expend way too much energy in the Mirage F1C and can’t regain it quickly enough unless you’re very lightly loaded which is almost never the case at the beginning of a game. You’re ignoring the fundamental problem of losing the initiative when talking about the capabilities of the Mirage F1C. It isn’t like the F-5, F-16 or Ariete that after surviving the initial head on can turn on a dime and get weapons on target rapidly while regaining energy for a fight or defend against another threat.

Not when they’re facing 12.0s.

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Not my experience. They only play out like this if you don’t change up your macro postionining and don’t use terrain for your advantage. Even on the superflat maps I can usually get some angle on people by adjusting my positioning relative to my own team and the enemy team.

Even if I agree with you that the opening moves will almost always be a neutral merge in a missile joust, you can simply hold your fire, multipath the sparrow, then do a 180 and magic 2 the phantom. It really is never that difficult.

I explained how. I even went into detail as to how you, the user, would employ it.

I read it. It didn’t make me say anything else. You imply it can be done, it can’t be done. Now that we’re on the same page, even without adjusting missile loadout, the F1 stays 12.0.

Read the above. Second time.

So don’t fire the missile in front aspect.

Radar has exactly zero (0) to do with macro positioning at this BR. If you position poorly it’s on the thing weighing down the seat.

Not how that works bud. I suggest you read into whats at 11.3-11.7. This game is UNIVERSALLY compressed, meaning your aircraft does just as much compressing downwards as the ones above you do onto you. You can’t shift the compression downwards, that literally just makes it worse and makes the issue even more prominent.

I would find it very funny if we ever 1v1’d and you were in one of these supposed “much better platforms” when I just multipath your sparrow then dog you in the dogfight. You just don’t know how to enter engagements is what I’m hearing so far. Learn what multipathing is, learn how to utilize it to close distance safely. Further: Use terrain masking and notch if need be. You still will not enter the fight on a massive negative footing even if you have to notch at some point.

You haven’t even tried doing it and it’s clear. You do not lose much energy doing this, nor does the Mirage accelerate so slowly that its impossible to do this. Try it.

Why…? Are you bombing??

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Makes no difference when you’re up against fighters with TWS. It also requires the spotting system to perform properly and we all know how that is.

All the while losing energy and leaving yourself vulnerable to be third partied. Also won’t work against F-18s and F-16s. Yet again like you’re underestimating the importance of having the initiative at the opening stages of a dogfight and the platforms you’ll be facing on a regular basis.

All the while ignoring the fact that it requires your enemy to be utterly blind. Air RB has player markers.

I did. It’s just as wrong as the the first time I read it. You can’t change the Magic 2’s existing strengths and weaknesses.

Nice of you to take this out of context for no reason at all.

Wrong. Almost everything you face will have TWS unless you’re downtiered to 11.7 and below which in my experience almost never happens. Ever hear of the OODA loop? First detection is vital.

It WOULD be super funny to me since if I was in an F-18 or Su-27/33 and you tried this, you’d be eating cannon shells before you were halfway into your turn and if I was in an F-4S or MiG-23ML/MLD, I’d be long gone and setting up for my next target before you even got your nose around.

Right… Because multipathing is super reliable right now.

No it doesn’t since you will be facing fighters like the F-4E and MiG-23ML and MLD that can still have the initiative in engagements and their detection capabilities are on par with yours.

Did you just miss the entire title of this post? Why would I be mentioning the Super 530F if I wasn’t carrying it? Fuel load also plays into it, remember? I’m talking about the opening stages of a game where you will be heavy. I carry 20 mins because I want enough to dogfight and return to base and rearm.

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The original post is just picturing all the problem of the mirage 3 and F1 family: a really good missile on an airframe that was good when it was top tier but really not worth it now that there are better platform at just 0.3 br above.

it’s just the result of adding the best possible missile on a platform to make it interesting on release and the br compression.

in the case of the mirage F1 family the only solution I see is the following

F1CT kept in current state ( basically it was just a bomb carrier during its services)
new F1C( early) with 550 magic 1 and 530 family at 11.0 ( without the current flare/ chaff pod i think there was other type of pod before the corail similarly carried like the Phimat one)
F1C late with magic and super 530 F at 11.3/11.7 with older design for flare pod : lacroix lance leurre in place of the chute (14 heavy) and the phimat (the F1C late should have been the F1C-200 the premium mirage F1 should have been an export one)
Ground ordinance shall also be updated to match with historical loadout (SAMP MK80 would probably be removed on the early)

a similar BR and feature redux could be made for the mirage 3 family

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??? Almost nobody in matchmaking is intelligently use TWS to track targets.

This is cope. The spotting system works enough to not die to people.

You wouldn’t do it with somebody else right next to you, but entering a fight 1v2 is you failing to exercise macro situational awareness.

1st, magic 2 works on every jet in the game, 2nd, you aren’t expected to win in uptiers by default. Those 11.0s wish you weren’t killing them with Magic 2s as well. You are picking out the specific undertiered jets that are the biggest culrpits of compression at the BR as some reasoning as to why you yourself should become a 11.7 stomp machine that just eradicates 11.7-12.7. The game is compressed, ask for decompression instead of more compression on top of what we already have.

This is air RB, so generally speaking you are greatly OVERestimating the importance.

No, it doesn’t. You have a problem with understanding simple concepts if you don’t see how their RWRs not displaying a launch warning can be used to your advantage. Hint: Fire at preoccupied people as I already stated AFTER having locked onto them for 5-10+ seconds ahead of time. This is not difficult. They can still chaff but it greatly reduces the chance they notice you and chaff it.

I’m just going to write you off as a bad pilot here who doesn’t understand these concepts.

Nope. Correct.

TWS is not a large buff in air RB except for guiding missiles. I know where 80% of an enemy team is at any given time of a match with my radar turned off entirely. I can find most of the other 20% by using my brain and eyes. You are massively, and I mean massively exaggerating how much TWS helps in RB for finding players. If we were having a discussion on SIM you would have a point. Further, you like to talk about player markers making the 530F strat i mentioned impossible (despite me getting regular enough success doing it) but will turn around and say that TWS is some massive tool while… player markers exist? Get real.

The point was to emphasize that I can literally just headbutt your missile through multipathing and engage you in a strictly neutral merge despite not ever firing my own missiles and despite making you lose one of yours. Also, if you “blow past me” in your MiG-23 or F-4S, I still won the merge by making you lose missile capability while not suffering any loss to energy/positioning while doing so. I’m not sure of your point here. I do not have to commit to a full 180 if I see you aren’t committing.

It very much is. It’s really only low skill users that don’t understand it that complain about dying during it. You obviously do not try to MP high angle of attack shots, but you didn’t say you were going to climb to 3000m before doing it so I assume this is a standard merge at low level.

Magic 2s make both of these intro scrap metal extremely fast, especially F-4E. Your FM is also as good as both of them generally, only lacking acceleration.

based on what?

Once again, does not matter in RB. Further, F-4E radar is FAR WORSE than the Mirage F1’s radar so please learn your aircraft.

Because using only missiles means you are LIGHT on load from the start. Magic 2s are tiny light missiles and you can either fire or drop the 530Fs anytime you want if you really think you need the small weight/drag buff.

The fuel load that will also be high on the opposing aircraft, remember? You can also just take low fuel and manage it.

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I assume you mean magic 1

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You don’t need to consistently track. Just one ping and you can get a pretty good general idea .

Wrong. It hasn’t worked properly in high tier for years and you can check the posts on this forum for yourself if you need more proof.

Wrong again. I’m not referring to a 1v2. This is more to do with someone appearing over a hill or just isn’t picked up until they’re too close thanks to the shitty spotting system.

Yet another reply with zero context. You seem to be making a habit of this. I’m referring to your tactic of pulling a 180 on an F-18 after dodging its initial Sparrow which is not possible with a F1C considering how much more maneuverable they are. I don’t want to win uptiers by default. I just want a reasonable chance, once that’s denied when your enemy outranges you considerably at the beginning of an engagement.

Wrong. Decompression is an overall problem. In this one specific case, moving the F1C to 11.7 or buffing the Super 530F’s tracking would finally balance it. 10.7 and 11.0 fighters also have chaff that’d give them a fair chance against the F1C.

You’re the one with the problem since you can’t seem to grasp the basic premise that the tracking of a Super 530F is horrible. I’ve already mentioned the F-18 example in my post. You can’t seem to understand that difference between RB and sim. The “preoccupied” people you’re talking about are usually pre chaffing/flaring rendering your point moot. Even then the 530F can still very easily miss unlike a 7F or 24R.

Yeah your opinion means nothing considering how you’re struggling to grasp the awfulness of the 530F here and the general weaknesses of the F1C at 12.0

Oh yes it absolutely is. One ping and I can figure out what path an enemy fighter is taking on the map while switching to another target to do the same and position myself accordingly.

Wow just wow. I’m not going to waste more time explaining how TWS is helpful against a fighter with dogshit radar and RWR like the F1C.

You’re the one massively overestimating the effectiveness of multipathing against SARH missiles. I also refuse to believe that you multipath a majority of the SARH missiles flung at you on an average platform like the F1C.

A moot point when the enemy platform has more. You’re also looking at this fight in a vacuum and not considering the overall battlespace with other players. Not to mention a merge will make you visible to the enemy team leaving you open to another opportunistic player(s). Now you’re reliant on your team to not be incompetent and keep them busy. Yet again you’re constantly on the defensive.

Wrong. Multipathing simply isn’t as reliable as it used to be against SARH missiles. It is against ARH ones though somehow. It still doesn’t change the fact that you’re on the defensive in the opening stages of an engagement thanks to the useless 530Fs.

Wrong. Nobody wins in that scenario. You’re forced on the defensive with no option to respond unless you want to eat another SARH missile/get third partied and the enemy player doesn’t get a kill.

Please explain how you’re going to do that while dodging their SARH missiles and they can decoy the Magic 2 and 530F from the front easily. As for getting on their tails for a Magic 2 shot, you’re again assuming these fights always happen in a vacuum which is not the case in most battles.

Based on the fact that you think IR missiles that are only a sure kill from the rear or rear side aspect are equal to SARH missiles that can kill you in almost all aspects.

By detection I meant spotting system not the radar…If you don’t understand, ask what I actually meant instead of making wrong assumptions.

Yes and those same aircraft will be adjusting their tactics accordingly after the merge depending on whether it’s a MiG-23ML/F-4S or Su-27/F-18. I’m not going to explain again how this will happen. It’s pretty clear that in every scenario except ones where you get within 2.5 km behind an enemy plane undetected for a Magic 2, you’re at a major disadvantage.

Let me fix that for you. "This is high tier air RB, so generally speaking you are correctly estimating the
importance.

Every single reply you made is based on the assumption of a 1v1 scenario and not an entire battle which is more important.