Chieftain Mark 11

Would you like to see the Chieftain Mark 11 in-game?
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

Hello, and welcome to the suggestion for the Chieftain Mark 11! This is the last variant of the Chieftain in British Army service, taking the upgrades and Stillbrew armor added to later Marks of the Chieftain, and adding TOGS, or Thermal Observation and Gunnery System. This is a generation 1 thermal sight for the gunner, allowing increased levels of target acquisition. While this would be the primary attraction in War Thunder, I’d also suggest the Mark 11 receive the L23A1 round and be foldered with the Mark 10, leaving the Mark 11 as an optional upgrade and lineup filler.

History

A Chieftain Mark 2 from the 17th/21st Lancers, 1960s.

When the Chieftain was accepted for service in the 1960s, it was equipped with a combined white light and infrared searchlight. While it did work, this system proved to be unpopular, especially for the illuminating tank during night time. Developers of the tank explored potentially superior options, including image intensification. The Barr & Stroud firm based out of Glasgow had created a demonstrator thermal imaging device mounted on the new No.21 cupola, named ‘Tombola.’ This would be used on the FV4211, and later offered for use on a potential German/UK design. Tombola was flawed from the start though, requiring the No.21 cupola to be locked to the turret, meaning traverse couldn’t be employed, negating the advantages of power operation. This was due to the fact that no slip rings were available to transmit power to Tombola. While Tombola ultimately wasn’t successful, it was the first thermal imager fitted to a British tank, and the team at Barr & Stroud weren’t ready to give up.

In the late 1970s, Barr & Stroud had begun work on TOGS, or Thermal Observation and Gunnery Sight. This was a first generation thermal imager, able to detect targets even through adverse conditions such as mist or smoke. It was comprised of two principal elements, the Thermal Surveillance System (TSS), and Gunnery Sighting System (GSS). TSS was the actual thermal imaging equipment of TOGS, picking out objects radiating heat, and through a computer integrating data from multiple sources, transfers the image to GSS, turning what would otherwise be a thermal camera into a gunsight.

The experimental Chieftain with a modified searchlight to house the TOGS, 1981.

While it was suggested that a TOGS demonstrator be mounted on Chieftain, there was much resistance, both from the Ministry of Defence and the team working on the replacement for Chieftain, MBT-80. The MoD thought it would be impractical, while the team at the Military Vehicles and Engineering Establishment (MVEE), or Chertsey, didn’t want the project to belittle its work on MBT-80. Therefore, Barr & Stroud would have to make TOGS a private venture, but wanted to have the support of Operational Requirements (OR) staff and the Director of the Royal Armoured Corps (DRAC) if they could prove that thermal imaging on tanks could work. A trial was therefore organized, to be hosted by retired Major Bagnall-Wild, intended to prove that thermal imaging could work on tanks, especially Chieftain. Demonstrator thermal equipment fitted to a Chieftain was able to clearly see targets up to 2.5 km away After much back and forth between the MoD and the supporters of using thermal imaging, Barr & Stroud were ultimately awarded a contract for TOGS.

In order to establish the best way of employing TOGS, several large scale trials were carried out, including one named Exercise Dragon’s Eye. Author Rob Griffin was part of this, attached to the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, stating that the aim of the exercise was to film and record crews carrying out textbook fire orders using thermal imaging. To this end, a thermal imaging camera was mounted on the barrel, just behind the fume extractor. Part of these trials were to establish the optimal location for the thermal imager head would be, as well as the compressor to cool the air required for it to work. By the end of Dragon’s Eye, author Rob Griffin felt that they had achieved something that would be of real value in the future.

A Chieftain Mark 11 of the 4th Royal Tank Regiment at the conclusion of the final exercise conducted by the Chieftain MBT with the British Army, Salisbury Plain, June 1995.

Initially, an early version of TOGS was mounted in the searchlight on four Chieftains for trials. At this time, the Chieftain was undergoing upgrades, notably with the addition of Stillbrew armor to the turret. This coincided with the solution for mounting TOGS, in a ‘barbette’ on the loader’s side of the turret. While it was lower in profile, it was much longer due to the cooling unit behind the imager, resulting in additional mounting pads being welded to the turret. Internally, fitting TOGS required 16 new boxes and 30 new cables, with additional modifications done to the ammunition stowage and radio equipment. With the additional Stillbrew armor and TOGS, the smoke dischargers, turret lifting eyes and a fire extinguisher were relocated, along with minor modifications to the engine decks. The additional weight of the modifications was 450kg for TOGS and 2,000kg for the Stillbrew armour. These modifications were done at the Royal Engeering and Mechanical Engineers’ (REME) 23 Base Workshop and 38 Central Workshop.

This culminated in what would be the final Chieftain variant, the Mark 11. It took work done over the past decade and essentially finalized the Chieftain in British Army service. The effort in putting TOGS into service wasn’t for naught either, as the Chieftain’s successor, Challenger 1, used TOGS as well, entering service in 1983 and famously being used in Operation Desert Storm. As for the Chieftain, it had its last hurrah with the Mark 11 until 1995, when it exited service with the British Army.

A Challenger 1, the squadron leader of D Sqn, 7th Armoured Brigade, Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, moves into a base camp during Operation Desert Storm, February 28th, 1991.

Specifications
  • Crew: 4
  • Mass: 57 t
  • Length: 10.7 m
  • Width: 3.6 m
  • Height: 2.9 m
  • Main armament: 120 mm L11A5 rifled gun
  • Main armament elevation: -10°/20°
  • Secondary armament: 7.62 mm L8A1 coaxial machine gun & L37A1 commander’s machine gun
  • Engine: 737 hp Leyland L60 Mark 14A diesel engine
  • Maximum speed: 48 km/h
  • Maximum range: 500 km
  • Ground clearance: 0.56 m
Sources
  • Suttie, W. (2022). Chobham Armour: Cold War British Armoured Vehicle Development. Osprey Publishing.
  • Dunstan, S. (2020). British Battle Tanks: Post-War Tanks 1946-2016. Osprey Publishing.
  • Griffin, R. (2001). Chieftain. The Crowood Press UK.
  • Schulze, C. (2020). FV4201 Chieftain Britain’s Cold War Main Battle Tank. Tankograd Publishing.
  • Chieftain - The Tank Museum
  • A look around inside a Chieftain Mk 11 (Rest in peace, TankNutDave)
Gallery

d2dfb79c54a4f190b65fa0d73db7a160

16 Likes

Yes please! The Chieftan Mk.10 is already great but the Mk.11 would be even cooler, like a baby Chally.

6 Likes

Can this be fit into 9.0? The MK10 is currently a forever alone.

Maybe the Mark 11 could be 9.3, as the Mk.10 is always gets used at 9.3 with the Olifant and the Rooikat

100% yes.

Absolutely!

A wonderful tank that would not be too hard to add and honestly should have been in the game years ago!

+1

+1 foldered

Chieftain mk11. TOGGERS

I consider this the most handsome Chieftain variant. Without anything on the turret side it feels “naked”, but the infrared spotlight box always looked too bulky. TOGS is right in the middle just how I like it.

3 Likes

I want this, but not as a separate tank. Just make a Mk 11 module with TOGS. Like the BMP-1 to BMP-1P.

No as the mk11 would have access to L23A1 and thermals.
It would be as a side grade more to Shir 1 than to the Mk10.

Alas the Mk10 really should have the L23A1 as well, as far as im aware L23 isnt a real round so they could theoritically be foldered at 9.3

2 Likes

yeah then add L23A1 to the mk10 as well then, I mean it rightfully should have it.

However with the fact the mk11 has a slightly differnet togs mount and engine deck it would also need to be a foldered tank.

1 Like

This should already be ingame, its a crime not to add it

1 Like

What I heard is that L23 and L23A1 were both “real rounds”, however its a bit complicated.

What we have as “L23” ingame is an early version of L23A1, possibly a prototype or early production variant. The L23A1 we have ingame represents the actual L23A1 round.

Irl both would have been called L23A1, I cannot confirm if this is true its just what ive heard

1 Like

Ive seen folks say the same.

Ive yet to be shown a source for it unfortunately, which is why i tend to sway into the fact L15A5 is a far more potent round than that which is represented in game, and l23a1 was the active service round that replaced it.

To say L23 is a prototype round is opening a can of worms as a multitude of nations trialed rounds which never were adopted.

However this doesnt change the fact the mk11 chieftain used the L23A1 round so would inherently be 9.3 hell may even be 9.7 if so.

Hey muh chieftain being talked about.

I think the Mk.11 would be ok even if it was at 9.7.

The Shir 2 would still be better, but the Cheiftain would have thermals, a better round and better turret armour (against KE)

If it got:

  • Thermals
  • L23A1 (the real L23A1)
  • its 840bhp engine

Then it would be fine at that BR, the Mk.10/11s turret armour is incredible and works even in 10.7, with the thermals and better round it would be pretty competant

2 Likes

Yes among other issues.
Like the lack of acceleration
The Entire frontal armour layout is completely incorrect.

Fix these issues it would be a very decent tank in a 9.3-9.7 line up.

I was just looking at your Cheiftain hull armour bug report, hopefully gaijin pay attention to it

1 Like

They won’t. I have absolutely 0 faith and question why I even bother looking into these things lol.

They will probably be like not a bug (We don’t accept official documents unless we like the vehicle they would buff)

Or (We don’t think the vehicle could have such thick armour)