He’s also suggesting that we uptier the AAs accordingly and making the ammo model accurate also makes it so they can do literally nothing at range, but if you’re taking them at close range, especially if they’re behind you, they can melt you very well. In the meantime I couldn’t name an AA like that that’s resistant to an M22, one of my friends actually killed a Gepard with the L3 in one shot one time. Frontally.
The issue with that is many nations already have a huge spaa gap that won’t get filled by moving the spaa up in BR.
Yeah sure but I have also failed to kill a xm246 and itps by sending a 100mm obus de rupture through 6 bends in the ammo belt. What’s your point?
That’s simply due to horrible ammunition models, part of what he’s suggesting be remodeled along with the actual rounds and ballistics.
I’m aware. Seen many of them since 2017.
Undertiered, just curb stomps everything below it
The armor works right now at 7.7, it just doesnt work against specific tanks or uptiers, which is very normal for heavy tanks btw every other heavy tank in the game is the same
1 Like
Not really, stuff like the Tiger 2, T32 and T32E1, T26E1-1, IS3, IS4m and IS6 will all hold their own in terms of tanking rounds in an uptier. For the Maus as well it also isn’t really specific vehicles, almost everything gets 200+ penning APDS and over 400 penning HEAT, so it’s really easier to die than anything else. Combined with facing more modern MBT mobility with M10 tier turret traverse and it’s hard to compete with anything in an uptier, regardless of balance in a downtier. I’ve said before that I would only want the Maus going down if ammunition was reworked or something, because while it’s pretty easy for most 7.3 guns, namely the american long 90, to pen from the side, it’s inconsistent mostly due to the way the armor model currently handles angles and multi-plate collisions.
1 Like
Indeed, but unlike the ones you’ve listed (and expect maybe the Tiger 2 lol…) the Maus has no tactical mobility which makes it incapable of playing to the objective
In reality, most of the time Maus gets beaten up. He falls against Bradley and many other tanks that were way ahead of their time because of the ±1 damage. I think they should have taken that into consideration.
Exactly, the armor barely working in an uptier and facing stuff like the T58 and having no ability to avoid those things it just fails. That’s my primary argument that it can be balanced lower, stuff like the 76 on a Hellcat could side pen it with Ckasarons proposed buffs, and they have the mobility to avoid getting shot, but if they do, they’re dead without question.
1 Like
Because I take offense to the mere concept of nerfing much of anything. It doesn’t help the game one damn bit, and all the specified nerfs I mentioned have long since overstayed their welcome anyways.
There are also a ton of other heavily-armored machines which would become far more balanceable with said changes - yes the Maus/E-100 are the poster-children of “the unbalanceable heavy tank” - but they’re hardly the sole examples.
What I am effectively proposing is stripping heavy armor in general of all its “fake survivability.” It is neither fun nor entertaining to see your armor penetrated over and over where you’re just playing barrel/breech repair simulator awaiting the inevitable. Thus by increasing postpen damage of all the various ammunition types, when heavies get penned, they die like everything else in 1-2 shots, rarely three. The very concept of “tanking penetrating shots” ceases to exist, heavy tank stats plummet, and their BRs drop with said stats, making said heavies more enjoyable to play as their armor actually…WORKS to PREVENT damage in the first place, like it was designed to.
And I would also make cannon barrels invincible for similar reasons - either you penetrate the actual armor of the damn tank or you don’t. If you rush around a corner like a headless chicken and greet a heavy your gun cannot pen (or can pen but you have the wrong round in the tube to do it), absolutely nothing should save your ass other than the opponent whiffing their shot.
Using formulas doesn’t mean we can’t also have mostly realistic penetration values. I mean for fuck’s sake I fixed the damn one Gaijin is using myself with the help of Google Search AI for the heavy math. It’s not THAT hard… And what I have now is a single DeMarre-type formula that works for AP, APHE, SAP, Naval CP, HE, delayed-action HE, base-fused HE, HESH, APCR, and APDS. I did this while finishing my doctorate in a totally different subject as a form of stress relief when the rest of my life was “dissertation and taxes.”
The gains are quite massive.
No ammunition type is terrible anymore. Everything is actually fun to use. A single standardized formula works for everything, making it remain just as computationally simple as currently.
Armor-reliant machines now properly die and die quickly when they get penetrated, giving them BRs based on their armor stopping shots from penetrating outright instead of where they can eat penetrating hits repeatedly without dying.
Giving HEAT its proper postpen damage arc pretty much forces almost all of it out of WW2 era BRs - isn’t this something the whole community wants, me and you included? HEAT would be dealing far too much damage to be remotely “balanced” against nearly all late game armor-focused tanks.
Giving APDS proper postpen damage actually justifies the sky-high BRs of British vehicles. And this would also force greater separation between 20-pdr/L7/Conqueror APDS and WW2-era stuff. Also the poor Conqueror would be playable for once.
Giving HESH its proper postpen damage finally rights the wrong the IS-6 inflicted on the game back in 2017. Nearly all tanks using HESH are 7.7+ so there’s not much that would even break anyways.
Giving APCR its proper postpen would alleviate countless balance issues from Reserve tier to end-WW2 tier. To name a couple off the top of my head: finally balancing Jumbo Shermans for good, addressing blatantly-undertiered long barrel Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs/StuGs/etc., generally helping out various autocannons saddled with HVAP belts, and of course properly balancing all heavy armor now that the historically prized round actually kills things.
This is entirely because nerfing SPAAG antitank performance does NOT make people suddenly only look up. Player behavior proves this - they either continue to try hunting tanks with them and die, sit uselessly in spawn and leave large swathes of map unprotected that then causes tank drivers in mid-map to complain about CAS being “overpowered,” or don’t get played at all.
If it doesn’t help anyone in the end, why keep them neutered?
If you want to address the actual mechanical problems with SPAAG, then you need 1) barrels made invincible so they cannot incapacitate your tank in half a second when they can’t pen you 2) fully volumetric armor models on every tank in the game so there are no cheeky gaps to slip 35mm APHE into 3) implementing the APHE nerf the community narrowly voted against and 4) giving tanks maps suited for actual tanks instead of city clusterfucks that naturally favor SPAAGs’ reaction speed.
Last I checked nerfing SPAAG solves exactly NONE of those.
Slight correction - one of my goals is to force-feed the idea of “SPAAG killing tanks is normal, if you complain about it you will be ignored, because nerfing SPAAGs has done effectively nothing helpful for the game at large.”
And part of this would be intentionally lowering quite a few of their BRs expecting them to kill tanks. Some would go up, but others would stay where they are or go down. Absent the codified stupidity of barrel damage and pixel-sized armor holes, there really is no damn difference between dying to one shot from a tank cannon or twenty from an autocannon - do you not die either way? Why is one seen is “okay” and the other is seen as “satanic”? I don’t get it when you remove the obvious cases of “oh that’s bullshit.”
So I propose steamrolling over the people who will never stop complaining regardless, and use their composted remains to grow new solutions to the game’s other ills.
If a vehicle’s damage model is bugged and allows it to survive stuff it damn well shouldn’t, of course it needs addressing. And yes, ammunition should be either completely fine or exploded with no in-between.
as a game convention sure i guess… It is annoying when you destroy ammo and it doesnt detonate the tank because of RNG, Even if that is somewhat accurate.
Note - I am referring to hits to either single-piece ammo igniting propellant or hitting propellant charges of two-piece ammo. If its explosive and takes a hit from any sort of tank round, it should blow the hell up unless the tank has wet stowage.
2 Likes
fair enough. an issue i see with that is that it will make APHE even more of an overpowered noob crutch as most tanks will be even more likely to pop from a badly placed penetration.
really need the APHE changes that were stupidly put to a vote in the game, im sick of players defending APHE in this game
The intent with making ammo have 1HP is that if you hit it with anything the tank dies unless its wet-stowage. APHE is a separate topic, though yes I agree with you that it was a stupid idea to put it to community vote.
i feel like that is a step too far tbh. a .50 cal rounds residue after a penetration one tapping ammo would really suck for everyone.
honestly just giving non APFSDS and APHE shells their rightful spall damage would make it a non issue
2 Likes
No. Just no. What happens when the enemy team has like a billion heavies that nobody can pen? You just get steamrolled and accept it? Not a good suggestion. Making barrels immune to smaller calibers is a maybe for me. Like maybe stuff under 40mm.
Sure I can agree on that
What I see happening with this is basically just a need to rebealance a lot of things for it to end up similar to how it is rn with what enemeies you can/cannot pen. Thus not really changin much in the end. At least that is whag I meant by no real gain.
Because sadl the alternative is SPAA spam that is the most effective way of killing anything they see.
No
Gaijin dug themselves into this hole so not much comment here. Volumetricising all the models takes a lot of time and the gaps werent the real issues. It was shells ignoring all armour after 2 bounces.
Yeah that actually is a good idea.
The You use air, that is why it must be cheap!
I can only guess that it is what he want to achieve in the end.
1 Like
That was my first thought, I would say anything under 57 millimeters shouldn’t be able to damage it or should take a lot longer, since that’s the high end of autocannons, but I do agree with the principle, something like an M18 versus a Tiger 2, the M18 would just need to barrel, track, flank. The Tiger can’t do anything to counter it unless it gets the first shot. I would say remove autocannon damage to barrels entirely and make it so that they can still fire, even when the barrel’s out, but accuracy is reduced and there’s a chance of misfire like with an orange/red breech.
Not my assessment
Having fought them a good bit playing around those brs really the IS6 is the worst, the T32E1 and IS4m kinda tie for best.