Canadian Sexton Mk.II

[Would you like to see this in-game?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

Canadian Sexton Mk.II

Sexton+II+running+germany+45.jpg

Why you might ask Because there’s a difference, let me start by saying the difference between the Sexton Mk.I and Mk.II is the hull, the Mk.I uses the Ram tank hull and the Mk.II uses the Grizzly/M4 hull.

The 25pdr SP, tracked, Sexton was developed during World war II, as one the few Canadian designed vehicles that served during the war. The production of Sextons started when USA’s production of M4 Sherman’s was up and running resulting in the decreasing production of Grizzly and Ram tanks and shifting production over to Sexton’s.
The Sexton Mk1 was created by modifying a Ram tank chassis to accommodate the 25pdr gun. They made around 124 (number varies depending on source but its all around 123-125) for the Canadian Government. Following that order the British Government ordered 300 but with the chassis being the M4 chassis, the chassis chosen was the Grizzly chassis as the America made M4 chassis and the Canadian made Grizzly chassis have a lot of similarities between each other. This new chassis went under the name Sexton II or Sexton Mk II.
Trails of the vehicle started in June of 1942, once trails were over (unsure on date) production of the vehicle started. Almost a year later in May of 1943 the vehicle got the official designation Sexton, in the summer of 1943 the British order of what would be named the Sexton II was ordered. The vehicle then entered its first combat in September of 1943 in Italy.

sexton-25-pdr.jpg

During the War Sexton’s were used by Canada, United Kingdom, Poland and South Africa. After the war Portugal was sold some Grizzly’s and Sexton’s as well India received some (unsure how they ended up with them)

During Normandy there was also some of the vehicle that were modified to be stabilized in their landing craft enough so that they could fire from them to provide artillery support to the landing force. (I have trouble finding more sources on this or photos so I’m unsure if this is true or not)

There was 2,150 Sexton SPG’s made by the end of 1945

Sexton tanks were manufactured by Montreal Locomotive Works they were also responsible for manufacturing the Ram tank

rsz_sexton_self-propelled-1024x768.jpg

Sexton II’s:
WD number S233626 to S235061
S286849 to S287438
Prototype CT43616

Armament:
Ordnance QF 25-pounder (Mk.I/Mk.II/Mk.III)

According to Design Records

Able to store up to 112 shells.

87 - H.E./Smoke

18 - A.P.

Specs:

Crew: 6
Gun Elevation: 40°

Gun Depression: 9° (not sure if this is suppose to be -9)

Gun Traverse: 25° Left and 15° Right

Maximum Speed: 25 miles an hour ( 40.23 km per hour)

Additional Canvas cover for the crew was also standard to have in the vehicle/

Armour:

1/2" Bullet Proof steel on the sides and the rear
3/4" Bullet Proof steel in the front

Hull: Grizzly Tank

Front: 2"

Sides/rear: 1 1/4"
Bottom: 1"

Full Specs: Taken from Design Record Canadian-Developed Military Vehicles World War II Volume III (Pg 115-137)
Split up into bundles of pages for ease of viewing

Pages 115- 119

Pages 120- 124

Pages 125-129

Pages 130-134

Pages 135-137

Videos:

Sources:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Sextons.pdf

https://wartimecanada.ca/sites/default/files/documents/Vehicle Data Book Pt1.pdf (pg 39)

https://web.archive.org/web/20180321023448/http://www.ramtank.ca/sexton.htm

Close Fire Support: The Sexton Self-Propelled Gun and the 23rd Field Regiment, 1942-45 (Link to PDF)

https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/post/artillery-in-canadian-service-sexton-25-pounder-self-propelled-gun

https://ww2db.com/vehicle_spec.php?q=253

Design Record Canadian-Developed Military Vehicles World War II Volume III (Pg 115-137)

2 Likes

Yes. I keep hoping for something with a 25pdr to be in game. Sexton, Yeramba and A.C.III.

4 Likes

It’s a nice post but it’s an indirect fire artillery piece not a tank battle machine.

You are 100% correct, however considering we have many self-propelled howitzers already in game, I think it could hopefully find its way into Warthunder as a playable vehicle.

3 Likes

Didn’t the Sextion and other WW2 SPAs have Anti-tank rounds? I recall hearing the did as some times they where used as TDs.

The 3.7 inch did (as seen in game) but that was actually an anti-air gun used as AA and anti-tank. I think it still was tested with rounds we don’t have in game but I need to dive into the archives again.

From what I can find No the 25pdr Sexton did not use any AP rounds, I’m unsure about the 17pdr Sexton or the project where they mounted a radar to the sexton. But overall I believe the Sexton only ever used H.E. It’s possible it was tested with AP but I would need to look through archived microfilm to try to find evidence.

1 Like

Your own original post suggests there were AP rounds stored. The Sexton is after all just a self propelled 25pdr field gun, and the 25pdrs did use AP against tanks in self defence. The 25pdr gun could also be sighted for direct and indirect gunnery, so there’s no reason why it can’t function as a tank destroyer in War Thunder.

Totally blanked on that, Thank you for calling me out on that. I think you are 100% correct its probably just in case, as it wasn’t many rounds when compared to the amount of HE it carried.
image

2 Likes

This defo needs to go to the UK right… there’s no reason for this to appear in the US tree right?

1 Like

Yes.

I’d say it should get to the UK even if there is a Canadian tree. Given to both trees with how much the UK used them.

The Sextion is the “Commonwealth SPA” after all.

Didnt we also directly use the Sexton and have a part in making it?

Apart from the UK commissioning Canada to build a self-propelled 25-pdr, the Sextion had no external involvement.

And these are the only users I could find:
Canada
United Kingdom
South Africa
Poland
India
Portugal

To clear UK did have same some of a say on the development somewhat. As UK did order a batch and those of that batch were made to UK specification as some of the features they didnt like on the sexton.
UK was not interested in the sexton until the prototype went through demonstration trails in UK, the prototype was being trailed at the same time as the ram 3.7 inch (one that is found in game).
The prototype sexton was CT43616 and was trailed by a gun detachment from the 15th Field Regiment, Royal Canadian Artillery. Trails began on the 29th of December 29th 1942 and completed with the demonstration on January 8th 1943 at the Royal School of Artillery in Larkhill.

Some of feedback from this was used towards improve what would become the production model of the Sexton I and eventually the Sexton II. Some of the feedback after review were seen as impractical and did not end up on the production model of the vehicle. But just like any military vehicle during production modifications will be made to correct issues or improve on the vehicle.

1 Like

1 Like

95mm pen on the Super Plus round at 30 degrees, not bad at all. I will assume this was the later round introduced with a ballistic cap. Starts losing out vs the 6pdr APCBC over range, but comparable at close range. Gives us a reasonable idea.

Gaijin’s penetration calculator puts it at 97mm at 10 meters @ 0 degrees so it might not perform as well in the game against an angled surface as it does IRL.

Is that normal for a gun in War Thunder to be worse than real life? Surely it would lose more than 2mm going from flat to 30 degrees?

Their formula is not perfect. It’s a variant of the DeMarre formula used originally for large naval guns. It doesn’t take into account the different types of steel used for the projectile or its target, for instance. But it does offer an equitable baseline for all ammunition to be judged by. Adding to that, all armor in the game, regardless of nation, is generally only judged by its thickness and whether it’s cast or rolled homogenous armor and nothing more.
This system helps a lot in cases where there is very limited information about a vehicle and/or the ammunition.

The original tests may have had very good metallurgy for the projectile, and the target armor always depends on how good an armor they can produce to test it on, and usually varies from nation to nation (and from reality to the game), so you can get different results and readings depending on your sources.
This round may be of better quality IRL than what gaijin assigns it in the game, but it is judged fairly since all other rounds are judged by the same metrics. This does lead to some discrepancies as we see here, and I believe the devs can tweak these things if they don’t match that well ultimately.

Also, it doesn’t say that the round is capped or not so I left that unchecked when I entered the values.

2 Likes

Thanks for the explanation. How does adding the ballistic cap affect it? I know I’ve read rounds with ballistic caps were developed for the 25pdr during the war. I would personally hope it at least does decent post pen damage given the mass of the shell. At a BR around 2.7-3.0 it might be a good round for UK to help deal with down tiered T-34s and KV-1s that take little post pen damage vs a 2pdr. or 6pdr I know there are other options of course.

1 Like

It varies quite a bit when it comes to capped shells. My personal rule of thumb is to add 10% to all penetration. I don’t think it affects post-pen damage, but the weight and caliber alone should produce a lot of fragments in the game.
In short: Ballistic caps tend to increase penetration over range, and normal caps give better angled penetration. Some shells have both and are usually the best choice.

For the 25-pdr with cap and ballistic cap (APCBC), it would pen 107.97 mm, which is more in line with the IRL report. So it may have been capped, just not designated as such in the report. :)

You can check penetration if you have the proper values with this link: New formuls for calculating of the armour piercing — War Thunder Wiki. I keep it bookmarked myself as I often use it :P

1 Like