British Helicopter Tech Tree - Discussion Topic

Machinery of War Discussion Helicopter
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Yeah it’s highly frustrating that literally the only thing we are missing is an image of a Gazelle doing a fit check with Hawkswing.

We have various reports saying Hawkswing was expected to arm both Lynx and Gazelle
We have images of Hawkswing being test fired on Scout and that the AF.530 sight was used for aiming Hawkswing in such trials.
We have footage of Lynx with Hawkswing for fit checks along with testimony that this weapon installation also supported dropping bombs, reconnaissance flares and smoke markers with an LSBC. We have also seen Lynx with AF.530
We have footage of Gazelle flying with the same reconnaissance flares as Lynx, on a more refined LSBC. Along with the weapon selection panel for those flares, which also has a setting for ATGM under “Armament Selection”. Which follows the idea that Gazelle was intended to have the same weapon installation as Lynx.
And we know that in service, Gazelle did receive the related AF.532 sight, even if the missiles it was intended to aim were cancelled. And that it retained the pylons, and that they were utilised for SNEB during Op. Corporate, and Ultra 4000 FLIR during Op. Helvetic

All the pieces are there. Just not all together at the same time on the shrieking chicken drumstick.

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169

Ah the MoD. The biggest threat to the British Military.

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170

Was the AS.12 ever marketed on the standard one though? I find it odd because I have a book by Bill Gunston from the 80’s which has all sorts of crazy loadouts but not much evidence to back them up.

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Navy one kind of was the standard one. More Navy Lynxes were built since it had far more export success than the Army Lynx. The latter was only operated by us and the Qatari Police.

And at the end of the day; throughout the world AS.12 has primarily been operated as a Naval missile, with the RN being the only British military service to do so (saw service on Wasp HAS.1, and Wessex HU.5). But it was considered a legacy 1960s system when Lynx was entering service in the late 1970s: the RN intended to have Sea Skua operational when Lynx reached IOC - AS.12 on HAS.2 was likely just backfilling the capability or simply helping to certify it for the French and other potential foreign customers. The UK’s ambition was to export both Navy Lynx and Sea Skua together.
The AAC appears to have had equally forward-looking requirement to replace AS.11 and only considered Hawkswing, HOT and TOW (and possibly Milan), that were in development at the time as air-launched ATGMs. So for Lynx AH.1 its only military customer evidently has no interest in trying AS.12 which was basically just a bigger AS.11.

However, the AS.12 mounting on both the RN and French HAS.2 appears to be the same “NATO flange” (sic) installation that the Hawkswing used to mount on AH.1 in the above video. So I imagine it technically could be adapted for AS.12 with compatible sights and control systems installed.
There’s the snippet from Flight International from the 1970s when Lynx was still in development and first being marketed for export, which doesn’t discern between Army Lynx and Navy Lynx in terms of weapon options. So maybe where some of the more exotic loadouts you mention come from, along with the stuff shown in this video from the 1980s or so, that seems to be geared towards (unsuccessfully) marketing Army Lynx abroad

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172

Awesome find. Honestly the fact that the Gazelle with the LSBC flares has a setting for ATGM is good enough for me, but obviously I’m not a developer so I don’t decide these things.

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Speaking of AS.12: There aren’t many photos showing the Wasp’s APX/Bezu M260 stabilised sight used to assist aiming AS.12, installed on Wessex HU.5. I think I’ve only seen this tiny one and a couple of better ones of XT486 fitted with it

XT486

https://i.imgur.com/qAS0PMr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NX4TtCH.jpg
Sight has a rain/dust cover over it in the second photo

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174

Would this, combined with the documentation showing the great interest in putting Hawkswing and Milan be enough to make a suggestion and convince the devs I wonder…

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Does anyone have the performance of the Lynx HAS.3 please?

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Well the most compelling statement for it comes from a research paper titled
VISUAL EFFECTS OF HELICOPTER MANOEUVRE ON WEAPON AIMING PERFORMANCE by P.R.Michael. T.E.Jardine and M.K.Goom in their role at British Aerospace Dynamics Group
Cover
BAe Dynamics had incorporated BAC (Guided Weapons) the developer of Swingfire, in 1977. Mr. Jardine being the Chief Systems Engineer for Anti-Tank Guided Weapons at BAe Dynamics.

This dates the paper as being written after hawkswing was cancelled, but the paper states that the research detailed was carried out as part of the development of a helicopter-launched variant of Swingfire, later clarifying that such a weapon became designated as “Hawkswing”.

Intro
Intro1010×483 128 KB

And in outlining the characteristics of Hawkswing, states that the project intended to arm both Lynx and Gazelle with the missile system.
Outline
Outline1008×385 120 KB

So basically we have a primary source of info from the weapon system manufacturer, saying they started development of Hawkswing for the UK and it included arming Gazelle.

The full paper can be read online here https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA065234.pdf published by NATO as part of a 1978 scientific journal. It’s the 25th article in the journal, and starts on page 213 of the digitised version.

And so far as Gazelle’s anti-tank role for the UK goes, there’s a source in Westland’s briefing notes for Pathé News’ coverage at the 1972 Farnborough air show (then known as the Society of British Aerospace Companies Show)

C.
WESTLAND/AEROSPATIALE GAZELLE.CO-OPERATIVE PROJECT. AEROSPATIALE DESIGN. 60 PER CENT MANUFACTURED BY WESTLAND. ON ORDER BY BRITISH ARMY, R.N., R.A.F. GENERAL-PURPOSE LIGHT WEIGHT FIVE SEAT HELICOPTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS, OPERATION, ANTI-TANK ROLE AND TRAINING. TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 3750LB. SINGLE TURBOMECA ASTAZOU 111B ENGINE 600 SHP MAX. CRUISE SPEED 140 KNOTS. TYPICAL OPERATING RANGE 300 NAUTICAL MILES.OVER 300 AIRCRAFT ON ORDER,INCLUDING 142 FOR U.K.FORCES. LICENCE PRODUCTION AGREEMENT FOR 122 AIRCRAFT SIGNED WITH YUGOSLAVIA. 30 PLUS CIVIL GAZELLES SOLD IN U.S.AND ELSEWHERE. FIRST U.K. ORDER FOR CIVIL GAZELLE SHOULD BE ANNOUNCED AT SHOW.

However, “Hawkswing AT missile” is only given by name as part of the briefing notes for the Lynx display

Also, if anyone’s having another trip to the Kew one of these days:

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image
image1024×724 53.8 KB

what those missiles marked as CTM are?

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Collective Training Missile

Close-up image

https://www.britmodeller.com/walkarounds/helos/ah-1%20apache/AH%20detail%2037.jpg

Collective training missile replicated a hellfire missile that is mounted on the apache helicopter wah-64; missile provides engagement and player status cues to aircrew and others, of simulated firing events, aircraft status by a flashwess indicator and night vision aircraft kill indicator; 56.750 in. Lg., 7.000 in. Dia.

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179

ok

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Another photo of a Whirlwind HAR.9 with what looks to be the launching rails

image

From here:

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181

Photo above it in the book also showed the port side launcher fitted
wwnd1

Still struggling to find more images of the Mk.10’s 4x AS.11 installation, but I’m pretty sure I’ve found a few images that show the three-point mount modification to Mk.10s that allowed the weapon platform to be suspended from the side of the fuselage. These three brackets aren’t present on typical HAR.10s/HC.10s but are on some aircraft operating in South East Asia in the early 1960s, and seem to match with how we saw AS.11s fitted in the one photo we do have.

I marked the brackets a,b,c in the photos for visibility

WwndMk10_1
WwndMk10_11920×1429 252 KB

WwndMk10_3
WwndMk10_31048×1453 129 KB

WwndMk10_2
WwndMk10_21798×1199 336 KB

Links to original images

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1493/80-2014_09_17_66_2__0708905bcb9ad0e7135902530c09ba0f10b977a0.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1340x2000/80-2014_09_17_117_6e75c04ceb643ef510b58fe78debf043819bea2a.jpg
https://www.ashpole.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Kuching2.jpg

The rectangular fairings for the electrical connections to the missile launchers (between the fuel filler cap and the vent cowl on the first two photos, and the big olive green square in the third photo) are also not present on most Mk.10s.

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182

Considering how few were actually modified, it’s going to be hard to find images. Based off of the evidence in this thread, there’s more than enough to make a suggestion about both the HAR.9 and 10. That being said, more evidence is always welcome.

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image
image1056×700 69.6 KB

super lynx with Penguin anty ship missile

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184

image
Lynx 3 with 4x mistral launcher

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185

Do you know which variant of the SuperLynx this is?

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I don’t unfortunatly

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No worries