Bring back armor meta (midtier)

[jspene]

All of these examples aside from T92 and PT-76B hardly see WW2 tanks except in full downtiers.

And the PT-76 HEATFS shell only has like 200mm of pen, it’s pretty shit actually.

[_Marco]

@EddieVanHalo

@_Marco

I don’t play Low-Tier but I think this is still fairly accurate:

It seems that those who have the most to say about era separation don’t even play low tier yet they come wading in to shout down WW2 enthusiasts who just want to be left alone to play a WW2 game.

I don’t mean to single you put as it’s a very common opinion from those who dont even seem to play WW2 or have an interest in it and just an observation.I can see you playing devils advocate as well and I agree with what you put.

I also think maybe some WW2 guys never go beyond 7BR and your view can change once you see the other side. There is a lot of fun to be had seal clubbing old WW2 Tiger twos in a heat firing 50 vehicles especially if you are lucky enough to find yourself mostly in a down tier or equal BR most of the time.I can see why people are desperate to try and protect that.

I think overall playing Germany at 6.7 is a drag where as playing USA is funny and fun due tot he amount of crazy stuff they had.Light ,very fast and with crazy pen.

The mix like oil and water in the game though.It’s certainly noticeable if you have had 13500 games all at WW2 level like I have.

I don’t see a way out of it.

Making two divisions and allowing WW2 only would be nice but I don’t see how.
I could never imagine Gaijin putting in the effort.

Late on we have Centurions at 7.7 with no roof mg facing helicopters like the Apache.That is awkward. Like Gaijin never gave it a thought.Same with the Israel stuff at 7.7 ,no MG elevation and a sky full of fast jets.

I can only mark War Thunder down at this point.

So you have two options.Go back down to below 4BR and immerse your self in WW2 or push through and play around 8BR and enjoy the Cold War madness because it is fun as well.
It’s also educational if you know little about Cold War tanks.

When I said i don’t play lowtier I meant 4.0 and bellow. My most played tank is at BR 4.7 and 4th most played tank is at BR 6.0

[QTip_44]

WWII heavy tanks go up 7.0, mainly because of their armor. So they COULD face even 8.0 opponents. (I’m constantly uptiered and majority of the time it’s by a full BR - so yeah, my WWII tanks will meet these modern weapons often).

“Only” 200mm of pen?
That light 5.0 tank with modern weapon can easily kill a Tiger E (6.0) from the front. My Tigers have been one-shot by PTs and it is ridiculous.

Don’t forget the LeKPz M41- which is VERY common - has 254mm penn at any distance, so will have no problem disabling the Ferdinand and even the Tiger II which has LOS thickness of 233mm.

[QTip_44]

@vizender

While heavies are very easy to kill for flanking light tanks, there’s nothing worse for them when a heavy takes it time, keep distance, and use it’s armor and superior gun handling at long distances.

Many of the modern light tanks use HEAT-FS. Distance does not affect penetration…

As for the “… and use it’s armor…” that is exactly what we are debating. They CAN’T use their armor because the modern weapons are making the armor useless.

[EddieVanHalo]

@QTip_44

WWII heavy tanks go up 7.0, mainly because of their armor. So they COULD face even 8.0 opponents. (I’m constantly uptiered and majority of the time it’s by a full BR - so yeah, my WWII tanks will meet these modern weapons often).

“Only” 200mm of pen?
That light 5.0 tank with modern weapon can easily kill a Tiger E (6.0) from the front. My Tigers have been one-shot by PTs and it is ridiculous.

Don’t forget the LeKPz M41- which is VERY common - has 254mm penn at any distance, so will have no problem disabling the Ferdinand and even the Tiger II which has LOS thickness of 233mm.

It does kind of make you wonder why you bother with WW2 at all sometimes.
I just a few games with a Tiger F at 6 BR and it was very enjoyable like the older days with very little post WW2. Just one M51 took me out but really I should have seen him sooner.Big enough target.

So much more fun without the artillery spam

[markimash]

@_Marco

Things like the Arl44, the asu57 or the ikv72 are more like their WW2 counterparts and so I would describe them as rather “conventional” tanks.

I see. And how about for late soviet heavies? How far up that line would you like to go? I would assume the is3 and 4 would be considered “ww2”.

@EddieVanHalo

I think overall playing Germany at 6.7 is a drag where as playing USA is funny and fun due tot he amount of crazy stuff they had.

Yeah, US 6.7 is pretty fun. They have that strong heavy line up at 6.7. I would say germany is too. Jagdtiger is one of my favorite tds. Sadly, gaijin doesnt like ambush tanks.

[BSpiel8]

@markimash

I see. And how about for late soviet heavies? How far up that line would you like to go? I would assume the is3 and 4 would be considered “ww2”.

The IS-4 prototype that was chosen out of the 7 constructed was completed in 1944, so many would consider it to be WWII. Although, the version we have in-game is the “M”, a slightly modernized variant that was produced in the 50s.

To me even a minor service upgrade such as the IS-4M would be put in the early cold war ranks for the sake of consistency and to avoid potentially biased opinions on what does and doesn’t use WW2 technology. After all, it is already at 7.7, so the deadliest of its current foes would not see much of a shift.

[vizender]

@_Marco

I have already admitted that this point was stupid for me to make since I cannot back it with any data. Though when you watch YouTube videos from 7 years ago you see significantly more conventional tanks than now, just type “War Thunder before:2018” into the search bar, then it will show you all the videos before 2018

You miss the fact that the proportion of different types of vehicle has greatly changed over the past few years. The same way you refuse to accept my argument, I can do the same to yours in this area

@_Marco

Now we could argue about certain light tanks, limited turret rotation is typical for many other tank destroyers, too.

All the <6.7 HEAT slingers do come with these caveats

@_Marco

I thought you were against giving vehicles historical battle ratings. There still is much conventional stuff at 6.7+, too, though.

My point is that some of you want historical ratings to remove those “annoying” HEAT slingers. My point is that it’s not as clear cut as many think. The m60 battletank and French HEAT slingers are just a few years appart, with the first AMX 13 90 being from the early 60s.

@_Marco

It does more damage than AP

I call caps on that. I play the French tech tree mainly, so I am very aware of the damages done by AP and HEAT. I would 100% take AP with similar penetration performance for the better post pen damage.

@_Marco

I have made it clear already that I don’t want the heavy tanks to be invulnerable

My point here is that it looks like many people in this thread want that.

@_Marco

It should just not be a thing that highly mobile light tanks with 6s reload can lolpen anything while conventional counterparts cannot do the same.

I don’t understand the argument. HEAT slingers can pen heavies, but conventional guns often struggle. Would you want everyone to struggle then ?

@_Marco

And “Everyone just doesn’t use them correctly, they are balanced perfectly” is a pretty poor argument in my opinion. Idk maybe I misunderstood it.

Tons of people don’t know how to use heavy tanks. That’s a fact. They saw one documentary praising said heavy tank, how invincible it was during the war, fighting interwar armoured vehicles, and figured it should be invincible in game, and play as is. That is especially common among German and Russian players. Which is interesting because I see US heavy mains doing much better in general in the 6.7-7.7 bracket, even against HEAT slingers

@QTip_44

Many of the modern light tanks use HEAT-FS. Distance does not affect penetration…

As for the “… and use its armor…” that is exactly what we are debating. They CAN’T use their armor because the modern weapons are making the armor useless.

I was mainly talking about the poor ballistic of the 90mm HEAT-FS compared to those of 100+mm APHE found on heavy tanks. If you sit somewhat hulldown at 700+m from a HEAT slinger, you’ll have a massive advantage over them

[Rowiek]

Top tier focus has to be lowered

Predominant focus on Top-Tier and Lower-Tier neglect ‘Lower-Tiers’ are between 1.0-7.0. Over the past few years, it’s become increasingly clear that War Thunder’s updates are predominantly focused on the top-tier areas of the game. While this might be exciting for players who have already reached those upper echelons, the reality is that the vast majority of players never even get there. For many, after months or even years of grinding, the top tiers remain out of reach. Yet, we are continuous…

[_Marco]

@markimash

@_Marco

Things like the Arl44, the asu57 or the ikv72 are more like their WW2 counterparts and so I would describe them as rather “conventional” tanks.

I see. And how about for late soviet heavies? How far up that line would you like to go? I would assume the is3 and 4 would be considered “ww2”.

The IS3 would definitely still be in it. The IS4 could potentially be in there, too.
I would be open to lowering or raising the max level of the max BR, this is just about the concept.

I could imagine creating a transition-tier between both “trees” which consists of tanks that can be down-tiered into the conventional tree or up-tiered into the modern tree. A such tier could potentially be filled with tanks like the M103, Conqueror, M46, M47, Is4, Is6 or some artilleries.

Now I don’t claim this to be the only solution that can possibly work. To me it is just important that the clash of conventional vs modern is a real problem that heavily influences the quality of gameplay and I didn’t want to come here with no ideas in hand on how to fix it.

[Kicimijazawa]

Adding max amount of certain type of ammo would solve the problem partially.
HEAT or APDS were not available in such numbers during 2WW that tanks could drive to battles with such ammo only.
Make them like 5 max and see what will happen.

[vizender]

Yeah, what a great idea. And when those tank have used their HEAT, they’ll only have smoke and HE left. That’s smart…

[_Marco]

@Kicimijazawa

Adding max amount of certain type of ammo would solve the problem partially.
HEAT or APDS were not available in such numbers during 2WW that tanks could drive to battles with such ammo only.
Make them like 5 max and see what will happen.

What about tanks that only can fire HEAT? I’m against such policies.

[RunaDacino]

One thing I observed my last match playing the Ratel 90:

You know the add-on armour german tanks use in form of tracks? Usually pretty damn useless and only adds weight.

I shot a panther where I usually do from the side to get the breech and gunner and… 350 mm HEAT-FS did nothing at all as the tracks kinda ate it all.

I’m not seeking to make any point here - merely, if you’ve been skipping adding tracks and random stuff to your hull as add-on armour… it might make a difference fighting HEAT-slingers around the late-war era.

[Pecanin]

@_Marco

I would like to know what especially War Thunder veterans who know where this game comes from think about this. Is War Thunder losing it’s way?

Lost it long ago
Currently stumbling trough the fog trying to find its nose.

[EddieVanHalo]

I suppose this thread is like this one WW2 only modes

Just a general feeling that WW2 era or the game at 6-7 BR is just not working anymore.

Historical matchmaker for everyone

Could we see a historical match maker. Planes from the 90’s fighting planes from the 90’s and so on…

[_Marco]

@Pecanin

@_Marco

I would like to know what especially War Thunder veterans who know where this game comes from think about this. Is War Thunder losing it’s way?

Lost it long ago
Currently stumbling trough the fog trying to find its nose.

I think it is not even trying to find it’s nose since it is successful as never due to Covid, the review-bombing that brought a lot of attention to it and especially World of Tanks falling off. Did you know that War Thunder has an active playerbase nearly twice as big as the WoT one now? That’s how much WoT fell off and Gaijin profits from it.
So I fear that Gaijin actually thinks their success is the result of good work from their side…

[CleanupOnIL-2]

there will never be an armor meta as long as you have people who can memorize your weakspots and react quickly in a third person view with pinpoint accuracy
best it can do is make people take more time to aim at you while you don’t have the same disadvantage unless you want to move tanks down so far most of their opponents actively cannot front pen, or you stay at range like most heavy tanks were used

[_Marco]

@CleanupOnIL-8

there will never be an armor meta as long as you have people who can memorize your weakspots and react quickly in a third person view with pinpoint accuracy

Yeah maybe you are right. My hope is stillt there they will at least try it in a separate gamemode or so. Bc actually having to aim for weakspots was so much fun back in the days. That’s what WoT for example does better, too.

[EddieVanHalo]

@_Marco

Yeah maybe you are right. My hope is stillt there they will at least try it in a separate gamemode or so. Bc actually having to aim for weakspots was so much fun back in the days. That’s what WoT for example does better, too.

I think a two division split is possible but not over strict lines so you could have a WW2 canon in division one but it would need some early cold war variants to work so don’t be alarmed to see the Centurion or maybe the the Swedish tech tree around.

There might be some gaps but we have those
we would have a new top tier we no tier above but have that already

we may need to make some vehicles reserve in the new Div 1 such BR cold war like M109 ,2S1 but we have that already

Div 2 could be a cut around 6BR but nothing to stop one ending at 6 and another starting at 7 so maybe the M51 is in Div 1 with the Cols war Artillery and the Tiger 2 is in Div 2 away from the cold war spam

You could say nobody would play 6BR in the high division but they would have to if they want to progress and ,nay might enjoy it as they go back to BR1 and play that.

I used to think the death of the WW2 game was just my immersion issue but now I think it is more than that now.

There is so much we could add to the game at 6BR if we were not concerned with WW2 or 50s Heavy tanks such as the Scimitar or other light fast tanks.We could bring in Brazil ,Turkey etc that could be in Division one only and not ruin the fun for the WW2 fan.

Like many things that could really take War Thunder on as a game the devs just cant be bothered with any real change.

I think such a chage would bring quite a bi of positive publicity to Warthunder