(BE) Leopard 1A5BE Discussion thread

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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Leopard 1A5BE Discussion Thread

With the introduction of the Belgian Leopard 1A5BE to War Thunder, this thread aims to serve as a central hub for documenting bugs, inaccuracies, missing features, and future fixes affecting the vehicle. As additional reports are submitted, acknowledged, and resolved, this post will be updated accordingly.

The Leopard 1A5BE represents an important part of the Belgian contribution to the BeNeLux subtree and differs from its German counterparts through its service history, ammunition selection, and national modifications like the FCS. Several bug reports regarding missing Belgian-produced ammunition have been submitted to the developers. Some of these issues have since been resolved, while others remain outstanding and are listed below.

Additionally, a poll will be included regarding the vehicle’s placement within the French ground forces tree. Currently, the Leopard 1A5BE is located in the Leclerc line; however, some players have suggested that it would be more logical for the vehicle to be placed behind the AMX-32 folder, continuing the same progression line that leads to the Dutch Leopard 2A4NL, Leopard 2A5NL, and Leopard 2A6NL. This would create a more coherent BeNeLux Leopard and French Export MBT progression within the tech tree while keeping the vehicle accessible at a similar rank and battle rating.

Feel free to contribute additional bug reports, historical information, documentation, screenshots, or suggestions related to the Leopard 1A5BE so they can be tracked and referenced in one location.

Polls at the end


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Tech Tree Placement


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Stat Card (non-spaded GRB)

Stat Card Realistic

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Small Stat Card (spaded GRB)

Stat Card Realistic

N/A

Modifications

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X-ray

X-ray Layout (stock, GRB)

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Munitions

Current Munitions

Current ammunition available on the Leopard 1A5BE:

Fire Control System & Optics

Current implementation

Gunner

  • Sight magnification: x5.2 / x11.7
  • Thermal imaging: Present

Commander

  • Thermal imaging display: Not available
  • Commander fire-control override: Available

Known Information on the Leopard 1A5BE FCS

Known Information on the Leopard 1A5BE FCS

The Leopard 1A5BE did not receive the German EMES 18 sight used by the German Leopard 1A5 program. Belgium instead developed its own fire-control package through SABCA and OIP, incorporating a new gunner’s primary sight, thermal imaging system, laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, muzzle reference system and commander display unit.

According to International Defence Review (1991):

“The thermal imaging system provides two fields of view with x11.7 and x5.2 magnification.”

The same source states that the thermal imager, day channel and laser rangefinder all shared a common head mirror and formed part of the newly developed Belgian gunner’s primary sight.

Additional Jane’s publications covering the Leopard 1A5(BE) modernization and SABCA Thermal Imaging Sight (TIS) confirm:

  • A dedicated Belgian thermal imaging sight was fitted.
  • Thermal imagery could be displayed to the commander.
  • The system used locally produced TICM II thermal modules.
  • The sight differed from the standard German Leopard 1A5 arrangement.

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The sight assembly itself is also marked with 7× and 14× optical magnification values. They further suggest that the currently implemented 4× / 12× values do not accurately represent the Belgian system.

Issues

Commander thermal imagery display

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Jane’s documentation for the Leopard 1A5(BE) thermal imaging system states:

“Day and night images are observed in the gunner’s sight through the same eyepieces, while the commander has his own TV screen upon which the images seen by the gunner are displayed.”

This suggests the commander should retain access to thermal imagery through the commander’s display unit, even though the vehicle did not possess an independent commander’s thermal sight.

Missing Belgian Munitions

The following Belgian-produced ammunition remains to be addressed:

M1001 APFSDS-T

M1050 APFSDS-T

M1060 APFSDS-T

Implemented Belgian Munitions

The following ammunition issues have since been addressed:

M1010 HE

M1061 (M456A2) HEAT

M393A2 HESH

Weight

Current implementation

  • Combat weight: 42.5 t

Historical implementation

  • Combat weight: ~41.8 t

Issue

Spoiler

Unlike the German Leopard 1A5, the Belgian Leopard 1A5BE did not receive the Blohm & Voss bolt-on turret armour package introduced with the German 1A1A1 modernization.

The in-game visual model correctly omits this armour package; however, the vehicle retains the same combat weight as German Leopard 1A5 variants that do carry it.

According to Leopard 1 Main Battle Tank 1965–95 by Michael Jerchel & Peter Sarson, the Blohm & Voss armour package increased combat weight from 41.8 t to 42.4 t, corresponding to approximately 660 kg.

Frank Lobitz likewise attributes approximately one tonne of additional weight to the armour package in The Leopard 1 MBT in German Army Service – Late Years.

Since the Belgian Leopard 1A5BE lacks this armour package entirely, its combat weight should be approximately 41.9 t, rather than the currently implemented 42.5 t.

Bug report

Current Leopard 1A5BE Bugs

Not reported yet

Accepted & Pending for review

Acknowledged / Accepted

Passed to Developers

Fixed & Closed

Closed (not enough info)

Belgian Ammunition Progression

The Leopard 1A5BE entered Belgian service with access to a variety of Belgian-produced 105 mm ammunition manufactured by Mecar. Several of these ammunition types have now been implemented, while others have been reported as missing or remain unresolved.

A possible historically representative ammunition progression for the Leopard 1A5BE would be:

Stock

  • M1061 (M456A2) HEAT
  • M1010 HE

Early unlocks

  • M393A2 HESH
  • M1001 APFSDS-T

Later unlocks

  • M1050 APFSDS-T
  • M1060 APFSDS-T

The implementation of the M1061, M1010 and M393A2 means that the Leopard 1A5BE now has three Belgian ammunition types that were previously missing. The remaining M1001, M1050 and M1060 rounds would further expand the vehicle’s historically representative Belgian ammunition selection.

The Leopard 1A5BE entered Belgian service with access to a variety of Belgian-produced 105 mm ammunition manufactured by Mecar. Several of these ammunition types are now represented in-game, including the M1061 (M456A2) HEAT, M393A2 HESH and M1010 HE. The remaining M1001, M1050 and M1060 APFSDS-T rounds have been reported separately and would further complete the historically representative Belgian ammunition selection for the vehicle.

The suggestion for more information regarding the Leopard 1A5BE’s history:

Polls

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Should the Leopard 1A5BE be moved behind the AMX-32 folder so that it shares the same progression line as the Dutch Leopard 2 variants?
  • Yes
  • No
  • Other (please comment)
  • No opinion
0 voters
9 Likes
2

I agree it needs to be moved out of the Leclerc line - that line is for French in-service MBTs (and related prototypes) and seeing a Leopard 1 in there is frankly ridiculous.

It makes much more sense in the export/BeNeLux line, which will also free up space in the Leclerc line for the AMX-30C2 which is an absolute no-brainer addition.

16 Likes
3

Hopefully, we see it got it’s domestic ammo before live. Would do extra in setting it apart.

And 100% it should be in the other line. Making the other MBT line the home for sub-nation and non-host used MBTs (export or otherwise), like what happened with the UK with its export/commonwealth line for dispersed sub-nations, really should be how they work.

4 Likes
4

I hope we get the domestic ammunitions too, and that it gets in another line that the domestic MBT one. It can go to the one where there is already the NL Leopards

3 Likes
5

I mean why not also move the AMX-32s to between the 30s and MAC

6

They could, but as those are export MBT’s I think it’s fine, however an AMX-30C2 would be needed behind the AMX-30 folder in my opinion.

1 Like
7

Leopard 1A5BE should be a very welcome addition to the game specially considering the performance of the AMX-32 at the same battle rating which is easily overshadowed by superior AMX-30 Super and the lack of better options at this battle rating line-up.

8

I mean you can easily relocate the entire 3rd line into the first 2 without any issues, and leave it for the benelux line

9

Sure, but it’s also a domestic vehicle and not a foreign one. IMO it’d make the most sense to love the AMX-32s and -40 (and maybe even the AMX-50s and even lower) to the second line if there’s plans to include more BeNeLux tanks (which would all be in that third line)

That third line could look something like, from Rank IV:
M26 (France)/M46 (Belgium)
M47 (France)/M47 Revalorisé
Leopard 1A1BE/Leopard 1A1BE SCT
Leopard 1V
Leopard 1A5BE/Leopard C3105
Leopard 2A1NL
Leopard 2A4NL
Leopard 2A5NL
Leopard 2A6NL

1 Like
10

Question, would this tank be eligible for the various M1060 variants of A1, A2, and A3? I noticed that there was no specific bug report on them so wasn’t sure if you were suggesting them as a family or if they didn’t see service in the first place.

2 Likes
11

Potentially, yes. The M1060 included in my report is the baseline round of the M1060 family. The later A1, A2, and A3 variants were all in production by the early 2000s and were trialed on the Leopard 1A5BE by 2004. Their existence and testing on the platform were also confirmed during the 2008 Belgian Senate hearings.

However, while there is circumstantial evidence suggesting that the M1060A1, M1060A2, and M1060A3 may have been available to the Belgian Army, I currently do not have any primary or reliable secondary sources explicitly stating that these variants entered service or were operationally issued. As such, I limited the report to the baseline M1060, for which the documentary evidence is more concrete and easier to substantiate. If documentation confirming the service adoption of the later variants surfaces, they would certainly be worth investigating as potential additions.

A table of the M1060 development pipeline:

Year Round Status
Late 1980s M1050 First-generation Belgian APFSDS-T after the M1001, specifically developed for the Belgian 1A5BE program.
Early 1990s M1060 Successor to M1050, comparable to M900.
~1995 M1060A1 First documented improvement to the M1060 family.
Mid-to-late 1990s M1060A2 Major improvement over the A1.
2004 M1060A3 Publicly unveiled by MECAR.
2004 M1060CV High-pressure gun variant for Cockerill HP guns.
Late 2000s–2010s M1060A4 Appears in later MECAR/Nexter/Cockerill marketing material as the newest evolution of the family.
1 Like
12

Slightly relevant: I was working on an expanded French TT proposal a while back (will eventually finish it and post here), and this is what I came up with for the Rank VI + VII MBTs:

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Would be nice to see it given better ammunition and moved up. The model is very nice, but it’s a shame the characteristics are copy-paste from the German one.

9 Likes
13

This proposal would definitely be the best option I’ve seen thus far!

3 Likes
15

Gotcha, and if base M1060 is roughly comparable to M900, then wouldn’t the addition of it be justification to push the Leopard 1A5BE to 9.7? I would fully support this, but it would probably mean that the tank would follow after the AMX-32s rather than before as you put in your poll.

16

Very much so, as you can also see in @ChieftainWarrior 's suggestion for an expanded French TT, it would likely go to 9.7-10.0 in terms of the current tanks at those BR’s. The M1060 is a very capable round that would have no issue against most vehicles seen at ranks VI and VII.

With “behind” I mean “after”, in Dutch “Achter” means both behind and after (although we also use “na”), this is my mistake, I should have included a visual.

Edit: Visual included:

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3 Likes
17

Pushing the 1A5BE to 9.7 with better rounds would actually make it more unique and more of a help to the French tree. The 9.7 lineup needs to improved more so than 9.3 imo.

4 Likes
18

Kinda wondering;
Do we have more data on SABCA SAIPH? (The Fire Control System / Thermal imager)

I have heard that it supposedly is a 2nd generation TVD but couldnt find anything specific.

I did find an IDR (post-janes aquisition & office-change) article on it however;

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It is written by an author who is generally deemed as quite reliable though so…
Maybe there is a possibility that its accepted as source? It isnt one of Jane’s famously unreliable yearbooks afterall…

4 Likes
19

let’s be real, the only reason this was added was so it would be an extra RP speedbump for players grinding for the leclercs

4 Likes
20

Currently, we only have secondary sources, such as the one you’ve posted here. They all appear to trace back to the same information and generally agree on the capabilities of the sight.

The most detailed description comes from International Defense Review (1991), which states that the new SABCA gunner’s primary sight incorporated a thermal imaging system using TICM II modules and shared a common head mirror with the day sight and laser rangefinder. This meant the day, thermal, and laser channels remained permanently aligned.

As for performance, the sources consistently mention:

  • Tank identification at distances exceeding 2 km.
  • Tank detection at distances exceeding 8 km.
  • Helicopter detection out to approximately 10 km.
  • Two fields of view with ×11.7 and ×5.2 magnification.
  • Commander thermal image repeater capability through a dedicated display.

These sources

  • Forbes (David Axe), which briefly discusses the unique Belgian SABCA fire-control system and contrasts it with the German EMES-18 used on most Leopard 1A5s.
  • Belgian Ministry of Defence / SABCA programme information (reproduced in several later publications) describing the 1987 SABCA–OIP contract for the thermal imaging upgrade and the development timeline from 1986–1997.
  • R.M. Ogorkiewicz, “Modernizing Belgium’s Leopard 1 Tanks”, International Defense Review 24 (1991), pp. 822–825 — by far the most detailed source currently available on the Leopard 1A5BE programme and the SAIPH thermal sight. It includes information on development, magnification, detection ranges, TICM II modules, integration, and testing
  • ABL History Forum

Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to locate any primary manufacturer documentation from SABCA or OIP that provides more detailed specifications, such as thermal generation, detector resolution, field-of-view values in degrees, refresh rate, or exact operating wavelength.

Given the period (mid-1980s development, prototype completed in 1988), it was almost certainly a first-generation thermal imaging system by modern standards, but beyond that I would rather avoid speculation until additional documentation surfaces. The currently available sources tell us quite a lot about what the system could do, but very little about how it achieved that performance.

2 Likes
21

Hello,
I do own a copy of the “International Defence Catalogue 1985/86-II”
I checked “Group 12”, which are the section for Fire Control Equipment for the S.A.B.C.A. entry, which is on page 136.

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Maybe this is helpful. I lack a scanner so this photo will have to suffice. I know there is a 1988/89 edition of this catalogue aswell, maybe that one has a better entry on this device.

3 Likes