Balancing issues in helicopter PVE

Game Discussion Arcade Battle
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Hello War Thunderers!

Helicopter PVE matchmaking is just awful. It is, as many of you probably know, divided in two tiers: From 7.7-9.3 and 9.7+. Now let me illustrate what the difference can mean in extreme cases:

Low tier: The strongest low tier helicopter is probably the Mi-24D (9.3, found in Soviet/Italian TT). It has great speed, a 12,7mm YaK-B MG, 4 Falanga ATGMs, 128 S-5K rockets, 4 S-24 rockets, 4 250kg bombs, 2 500kg bombs, 4 GSh-23L gunpods and CCIP for all weaponry. Or the strongest helicopter is the Tzefa B (9.0, found in the Israeli TT). It has a dual M129 40mm grenade launcher, 76 FFAR Mighty Mouse rockets, 8 I-TOW ATGMs and 2 M134 7.62mm miniguns.
The weakest low tier helicopter is probably the AB 205 A1 (7.7, found in the Italian TT). It has only 14 FFAR Mighty Mouse rockets and 2 M134 7.62mm miniguns.

High tier: The strongest high tier helicopter is probably the Ka-52 (11.0, found in the Soviet TT). It has a 2A42 30mm autocannon, 80 S-80KO rockets, 20 S-13OF rockets, 12 Atacka/Vikhr ATGMs, 4 250kg bombs, 2 500kg bombs, 4 GSh-23L gunpods, 9 Igla AAMs. Or the strongest helicopter is the Israeli AH-60 (10.7, found in the Israeli TT). It has one GIAT M.621 20mm autocannon, 76 Hydra rockets, 28 GATR guided rockets, 16 Hellfire II/Spike ER ATGMs, 8 ATAS AAMs.
The weakest high tier helicopter is probably the HKP9A (FC) (9.7, found in the Swedish TT). It only has 4 RB 55C ATGMs or 2 FN M3P 12,7mm MGs.

Players with some experience can immediately tell how much of a difference these weaponry options on a helicopter can make. Being in one of the weakest helicopters in either low or high tier PVE makes it impossible to grind effectively. Do not get me wrong, I consider myself a very good helicopter pilot (so I will not accept replies leaning to ‘‘that’s a skill issue on your side’’, because disbalance is a very objective problem in this game in general). And I really like helicopter PVE for several reasons, including:

  1. You can learn the basics of helicopter gameplay without getting annihilated by real players
  2. You can grind important modules like ATGMs and defensive capabilities before engaging with deadly SAMs in GRB
  3. You can choose from a variety of tasks to complete which leads to the possibility to test many different custom loadouts
  4. It is generally a very relaxing gamemode
  5. … and so on. Feel free to add what you like about helicopter PVE.

But seriously, most people do not even try to grind helicopters properly. They play their one or two matches in a AH-1G or Mi-4AV and start to struggle because they simply refuse to learn the basics. That’s why low tier helicopter PVE is usually filled with mostly starter helicopters and only very few people who actually grind to their medium rank helicopter. And these players dominate low tier PVE in their medium rank helicopters, since they are more experienced and have better weaponry.
On the other hand, those who do not bother grinding and spading helicopter after helicopter (which are at least 80% of players) either do not touch helicopters at all (and complain each time when they get killed by a helicopter) or buy their top tier premium helicopters. And therefore high tier PVE usually consists of mostly Ka-50s and premium Apaches and only very few medium/high rank tech tree helicopters. So in this case those who actually put effort in grinding helicopters have the problem of being overshadowed by more capable helicopters.

And why do people even play helicopter PVE with premium helicopters? The purpose of this gamemode is grinding modules, but premium helicopters are spaded by nature. If you do not know the rules of this gamemode (like having distance to Gepards/Shilkas) or even basics like landing, turning (Yes, many players crash when trying to capture the helipad) or firing ATGMs, then your premium helicopter won’t help you at all. Many players are seriously so bad, that I was able to get first place in a battle with just a stock Cobra (=28 FFARs). But among these premium players there needs to be just one player who knows what he is doing and then I had almost no chance of getting kills in my stock Cobra. This makes the grind of high tier helicopters very painful. What are your suggestions to fix this, or why do you think many people play helicopter PVE in a premium helicopter?

Hopefully my post was not too difficult to read, because I think I did not make my point clear enough.
I look forward to your responses though!

3 Likes
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Edit: What I would like to add is that when people refer to the term ‘‘helicopter’’ in War Thunder, they only talk about three things: The starter helicopter (AH-1G for USA, Mi-4AV for USSR), the premium helicopter (AH-64(GR) for USA, Ka-50 for USSR) and the one or two top tier helicopters (AH-64D/AH-1Z for USA, Ka-52, Mi-28NM for USSR). Almost no one ever plays or talks about all the other helicopters in any tech tree. You can see this on Wiki 3.0, all these three types of helicopters (starter, premium, top) have much more likes and reviews than anything in between. And only the premium and top tier helicopters require such a low amount of skill and that is why they are the most played/abused ones.
So please remember: If someone says ‘‘helicopters are OP’’, they only talk about premium and top tier helicopters. Anything else requires some or even a very high amount of skill to be competitive.

2 Likes
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Aside from the drastic imbalance between the starter helis I’d say the biggest issue at that BR is the AA.
The only way to defeat the AA with ATGMs which aside from MI-24 are on really bad airframes. I’d say more people would be more willing to play but AA it prevents them. It prevented me from continuing to grind helis.

4 Likes
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Yes that’s definitely a problem, too. In low tier PVE team work is required to beat the enemy efficiently. Those who have ATGMs should focus on SPAAs and ‘‘hard’’ targets and those who have unguided rockets should focus on the rest. But since team gameplay is rarely a thing in WT you have a hard time in most low tier helicopters.

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I’ll agree, as I am grinding a Scout AH-Mk1 and it’s slow compared to the Mi-24 and cobra, which can easily leave me well behind as we move from target to target. I’m all for teamwork, but it’s a pain in the ass trying to get to the battle to help. Most of the time I am trying to anticipate where the next target is and move early.

On top of that, the damage to point ratio is pretty pathetic for a helo with only 4 ATGMs. I can target something and hope it hits something before someone with either rockets, better guns or faster ATGM destroys the convoys.

Regarding SPAAs, I’ve targeted SPAAs such as the Gaypard, but the problem is that the ATGM doesn’t always knock them out first shot, only gets a critical. That makes it harder to try and avoid combined fire from multiple SPAAs, when I have to be within 3.5 km range firing a slow moving, manually aimed ATGM.

1 Like
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Fastest way to grind the Helicopter tree + easy Silver Lion farming

I can’t blame skill for that right now since tree collision boxes have been broken since the last major update

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I’d like to see balance that depends on helicopter armament, somewhat like this:

  1. Unguided rockets with no CCIP and early ATGM’s (SS.11/Falanga). As enemies: targets like M60/T-55, SPAA’s - M42/ZSU-57-2
  2. Rockets/bombs with CCIP and ATGM’s with range from 3,5 km up to 5 km (I-TOW/Shturm). Late M60’s/T-72’s, SPAA’s with radars M247/ZSU-23-4 as enemies as well.
  3. Modern weaponary with range past 5 km. SPAA’s with IR missiles and modern MBT’s (M1A2/Leopard 2/T-80BVM).
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I play helicopter PvE with premiums to grind SL. I find that the most effective and relaxing way to get SL is to pop a booster or two and play with the Ka-50 or the Mi-24D for a bit.

I think the easiest way to relieve some pressure from some helis would be to add another tier for mid-level helicopters like Mi-24V/P, AH-1F, BO 105, etc. They’re limited to SACLOS missiles with relatively low range and don’t have effective air-to-air armament. Separating them from stuff like the Ka-50s and the AH-64s seems to me like the most needed bit of balancing out of all.

A fourth tier exclusive for the super low performance vehicles (Italian/Japanese/Swedish would be ideal, but I think removing the Gepards from convoys at low tier would be enough. Boosting score for missile kills could also be useful for the helis with only 2-4 ATGMs and no guns.

At the highest tier what’s needed is more targets, and a lot of them. It only takes like four active players to destroy everything and leave no targets for everyone else, which affects people with stock helis in particular. Consequently matches are too short and rewards are low for everyone. Rewards per useful action period are soft capped anyway, so it’s not like adding more targets will increase rewards for the people who are already hogging all the targets anyway.

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Screenshot 2024-12-09 080825
Screenshot 2024-12-09 0808251668×1674 134 KB

This is what matches look like 80% of the time. Been waiting on new objectives for a solid 5 minutes. Instead of adding more targets they could add more objectives. Mi-24As and AH-1Gs absolutely dominate low tier with their payloads and leave little to no points for slower and less armed helis.
What we really need is:

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OIP

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Ideally they should add both, more variety and more targets in general, but this is Gaijin we’re talking about. I’m not expecting a ton of effort from them.

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But with the option of researching helicopters with ground forces shouldn’t it be even faster? Because I usually get more RP/h in ground battles than in helicopter PVE.

Regarding the other point: I did not notice anything wrong with tree collision boxes and I am usually able to get very close to trees without destroying my main rotor. However, I do not only talk about this major update. Most people do not know that you should enable manual roll control in a helicopter or dropping collective pitch before turning. Not knowing the basics of helicopter gameplay does result in many crashes and if that happens it’s only their fault.

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Yes, speed is definitely a very important trait of helicopters for this gamemode. But I’d advise to stay closer to the frontline the slower the chopper is. As with the AS.11 ATGMs of the Scout they have a ‘‘guaranteed’’ launch range of 3km and a maximum launch range of 3.5km, so it will self-destruct at a distance in between. The problem is, since the Gepards range is 3km right now, there is just a very small difference between minimum and maximum distance in which you can kill them safely. So yeah, the Scout and the Allouettes are definitely one of the worst helicopters for this gamemode, too, even if they do have ATGMs.
And a tip: If you manage to immobilise one of the convoy vehicles always aim at something behind it. They will be easier to hit because they stop as long as the damaged vehicle repairs. If you destroy the already damaged vehicle the other will continue moving immediately.

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That’s definitely an idea that could help those who haven’t researched advanced weapons yet. Though there are some problems in the implementation.

  1. As with regular air and mixed battles we are able to switch secondary weaponry mid-battle after landing on an airfield/helipad. That should be possible in helicopter PVE, too.
  2. Those who have unlocked advanced ATGMs in for their helicopter should be able to join lower-ranked matches but not be allowed to use ATGMs.
  3. AI SPAA has its own kind of leading indicator that tells them where too shoot. That’s why airfield AA and the M42s on the Rocky Canyons map are so good. So with the current implementation there is no difference in which SPAAs shoot at you.
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From these images alone we can see that we need more objectives that utility helicopters are designed for. Right now most utility helicopters (AB. 205A-1, H-34s, Gazelles, Hueys) are very useless because they cannot take as many weapons as attack helicopters do. So possible new objectives would be transporting troops, dropping military equipment on the frontline or rescuing friendly infantry.

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Anything is better than the current layout. I just played a few rounds and in some I was lucky to scrape out 350 points with the Scout.

ATGM hits if you were lucky to get near a convoy, were basically pointless. I’d fire off 4x ATGMs then have to wait for the rearm, meanwhile the faster Cobras and Mi-24s with their rockets could damage destroy most of the convoy. I even tried to hit a base, but it’s based on damage dealt, so that was basically a waste of time.

Worst game was a convoy with GAYPARDs spawning within 2km of me and shooting me down before I had time to react.

Also the landing pads, it sucks having multiple helos racing to land on it, with room for one.

Not worth the time or effort slowly flying across 10s of km of open land waiting for the next opportunity to spawn in.

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If you’ve bought a Premium Helicopter Heli PvE is by far the place where you will unlock the tree the fastest.

Also boosters work in Heli PvE, dumping >100% boosters into Heli EC even if you only stay for the first 30 minutes is a much safer bet than random RB games

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I thought i was the only one that dealt with that problem. Glad someone has evidence.

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Wait what?! I did not know it was THAT broken. But thanks for the insight…

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Solution, add back PvP!

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That game mode is too bad in everything, literally, they did do it without desire.

1 Like