If you like, count out the last two weeks. Or count 100 random pages from the last two weeks. Or use the filters to look at battles per time span. Whatever I did in the past, arcade wins hands down.
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What I would like is for Gaijin to publish statistics about the game and its vehicles so players can form opinions logically. Gaijin at the moment doesn’t feel this is something that would benefit the community. There is no data to show that Arcade has more players than Realistic.
Ground Realistic Battles has been the dominant game mode since around when MBTs were added. This doesn’t mean that Ground Arcade Battles should be removed. It does mean that making the argument for the presence of CAS is irrelevant as the main game mode already features CAS.
Allow Ground Arcade Battles to be the side game mode it was designed to be by offering it as a compromise for players who wish to only play tank battles.
Actually I do, usually a large part of my RP in AB ground comes from planes, either spawning in bombers/ attackers or shooting them down.
That is correct. But there is (easily accessible) data that Arcade is played way more frequently than Realistic. It only takes a few clicks to check it out.
In order to maintain that more people play realistic despite there being many more arcade matches, you would have to assume that the ‘few’ arcade players play way more than the ‘many’ realistic players do. That would skew the match numbers as you would like to see it. And you would have to find a convincing reason for this to happen.
So your insistance on realistic as the main mode seems to border on deep denial. Access the server data and look yourself.
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Exactly, and even more - note that I have VFW which is really OP vehicle. And every BR has some of those that this nation has the best OP premium/even or even tech tree vehicle.
And with Air Mission, what is happening here is that if I want to take a plane to score more kills, I just have to get to cover with my VFW/any other OP vehicle, go do a bombing run and get back to the tank and keep doing more kills. In RB/naval AB system, I would have to ditch this OP vehicle right when I have points for the plane, OR I would have to play till I get killed and only then jump into plane - in either case, there’s added cost of jumping into the plane that doesn’t exist in arcade.
Also I’m pushing for the naval AB-like spawn system because there needs to be a trade-off in such a change. If Gaijin where to make ground AB a tank-only mode, they’re giving up the promotion/introduction of players to planes as well as connecting combined arms tasks to this mode. If we go with naval AB-like spawn system, there is incentive for them to do this because it opens up ground AB players to grinding aircraft tech trees and buying premiums.
This is about the spawn mechanic though (because someone will start complaining about balance) and is completely separate from the balance - mechanic is a system and balance is the data fed into the system - two separate topics. Current spawn mechanic is made in a way that whatever we do, there’s always going to be someone that pulls the shorter stick in RNG, and if we would nerf the planes in general, people would stop playing them, so it’s not going to happen - not acceptable from gaijin perspective.
We can have naval AB-like spawn system that has different balance than what is there in naval AB - we can have for example -1.0 BR offset even, so for example playing 3.7 BR lineup, you can take planes up to 2.7 and not like in naval where there’s +0.7 BR offset because there’s a difference balance of power between then plane and a big vessel with a lot of guns. Also whether bombs should explode instantly, whether planes should reload mid air, land on airfield or fly low over it to reload bomb, whether the ground targeting marker should be there for early planes etc - that’s all balance data that can be fixed later on - some things need to be broken first and parts completely changed to be fixed.
I asked questions, you creatively avoided them and threw even more rabbit hole comments. I refuse to be dragged into that.
You do not even realise this is about making GFAB fully TO (no new mode) and for GFRB to be the Combined mode. Yes, your comments have been centred around RB which is not in discussion here even though I pointed this to you multiple times, which you ignore with: “There’s nothing to be engaged with.”. Yes, your flip flopping on what I originally said is derailment and you continue to forget you jumped on my comment regarding a mode you do not play.
You have 200 battles in this mode you are supposedly “adding to how it could be implemented” and come discussing RB, which in this topic would stay Combined with no TO for it, which is NOT your position as I know you play GFRB and would very much want a space with no aircrafft. Again I brought this to you multiple times and you ignore it "as nothing to be engaged with). Stop being disingenuous, you were triggered enough to jump on my comment and it is very clear.
Shady? How? I practice what I preach. It is clear WT from a few weeks after Ground Beta that both AB and RB would be Combined (so many many years), we all came to this game knowing that TO was not there. Yes you can ask for the mode, the point you fail to understand is that criticising current GFs is not helping anyone convince Gaijin to introduce a new mode just for them (and everyone off course, I would have played it too if it existed, but it doesn’t). Yes, people can criticise, but if they then for YEARS play the modes and pretty much add to the “issue” of CAS becoming more OP (Aircraft have advantages, but these advantages are reduced if they get shot down, so avoiding air trees is a choice with over arching negative impacts - if you are just a tanker or pilot then sorry but I feel the game should not cater to you outside of what is already on offer, it is for players not niche users who then moan that things are not to their liking) then this is not proactive at all and in my opinion should be ignored as a reason for TO (the reason for me would be different dynamic in TO modes, and yes, easier in RB (not the subject here) as you could ignore researching air, but this is about AB not RB). “I hate your Combined GF, give me a TO” has so far 100% failed, yes?
The reason why people are negative to these “Suggestion” topics is due to the sheer number of them. Yes, it shows people want TO options, but it also shows Gaijin have no interest (currently).
While there is no TO take ADVICE for making CAS less annoying. Which is why I spent a lot of time with fighters to help my teams with the aircraft issue. (then get attacked a fair amount for pointing this out even though one off the longest running TO advocates also agrees). UNTIL there is TO I will promote positive action over just asking for a new mode, which Gaijin obviously are aware of since they answered the general question on it a long time back and there is no movement as yet.
Which shows you do not understand what I said and my opinion on the subject which I have always been clear about, even if you choose to ignore it again and again (hence your replies).
YES, IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE GAME YOU PLAY (SUCH AS FOR THOSE WHOE OPINION IS AGF IS BAD BECAUSE OF AIRCRAFT AND MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY) GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE.
I did! Much happier. So don’t get triggered because you failed to play any air and so are in that aspect dead weight for your team (not criticising your ground use of course).
Or are you saying that, if Gaijin never ever add any TO option, people should continue to moan and moan and not try to make the situation better with the tools we already have (later part being the more important element)? Which is the opposite of what I have said and you apparently take umbrage with.
And I know this is probably not what you really think but here you are supporting AB to be TO and RB to never be TO. Is this your actual opinion? Since I put this to you too many times yet “nothing to engage with” (aka you are being disingenuous as hell).
Yes, he is, cause it’s not cause we can’t use CAS that we don’t want it to be balanced against tanks, that’s why some of us don’t ask for a tank only mode that would make SPAAs mostly useless or some OP tanks even more tough to beat but instead ask for improvements and balancing, or for a different CAS system like we have in naval.
@MotorolaCRO @CoffeeBean100 - just started chewing through your argument…
Squadron battles work like this, they worked like this when arcade SQB was still available. This sucks if the only ground targets in game are players, matches are mostly decided by first clash in the air for AB, in RB it may be slightly different, because of 4 planes limit, but still it’s a nuisance for ground.
I think it’s called Playing the Objective, and it’s a way for bombers to have something to do and way to grind - nothing wrong about it.
For one, if vehicles in the game are supposed to be “realistic” in their features, stats, strengths and weaknesses, then not adding natural threats for specific types of vehicles would make them over powered. For two, this game is made in a way that you should jump between branches to grind something else instead of playing a different game when you get bored of playing tanks. The argument is in gaijin’s ownership and power to do what they want/need to do to make money.
There is nothing about leaving GFRB as is or changing it to TO mode in the opening post. We’re mostly arcade-only players here and as such discussing RB mode as well is not something we should be interested in - this would just bring those players to the discussion making even more mess here as RB players tend to come and just state AB should stay as it is because they’re treating it as a risk that some resources would be spent on fixing AB instead of RB etc.
Anyway, you’re in the wrong insinuating that there is anything in the topic itself defining that GFRB should be or not be TO when GFAB would be the TO mode.
This is a more complex topic here… I agree that TO is most likely not going to happen, but still everyone has the right to suggest and discuss things. And also IF everyone wanting to play TO mode would actually submit that request in the poll that just closed today, then maybe we would have an actual focus of devs in the roadmap of the CAS problem in arcade. It doesn’t matter they wouldn’t explicitly implement TO mode, but wanting TO mode shows there is a problem with CAS for players.
Moreover you are really in the wrong when you are pointing out that a new player with 200 matches shouldn’t really be voicing his opinions - new players are actually the ones that matter the most for a GaaS game - once you’re hooked and you’re playing for many hours, you’re generating costs and only giving them retention unless you’re spending a lot. But new players are the ones that are the chance to be converted into those that spend a lot and potentially stop playing, and get back when something new is there, buy new stuff, play a bit and stop playing again etc. Those spending a lot but not playing a lot are most valuable, I think. And thus buying into top tiers is possible.
Assuming that replays website shows all recent matches, you can actually data mine it - making an actual data mine in the meaning of the term and not by looking at client files lol as gaijin wants us to believe what data mine is - and there was such data mine made few years back:
Without actually diving into the numbers of players, but having data on matches, you could actually count it, so the data is there. The difference is usually minor in terms of slightly more matches of GFAB than GFRB, but it’s possible to get the data.
I think that IF gaijin was supporting AB CCs instead of RB, because they have reason to promote RB, we would have completely opposite situation where AB community would be most vocal while RB would be treated in community as something hardcore that not many people want to engage with if most of the vocal players in the community were AB players. Both modes have their fans and both are valid and should not be diminished.
Nothing wrong in playing the objective, but the problem arises when your objectively easier task grants you way more RP than doing some other, harder tasks and this surely isn’t good for obvious reasons.
This is the main reason why people are upset, since you work your ass off in Ground having an amazing match, just to get same amount of RP as someone who simply took off, bombed a couple of bases and got a single kill.
There’s a clear skill difference between those two, which is an issue.
Tanks are a natural threat to other tanks, same goes for aircraft. You simply don’t need vehicles from another branch to balance things out in another.
Why should I jump between branches ?
I have over 11k battles under my belt and I still have to touch several nation’s Ground branch, which means you’ll spend countless hours in order to research every single vehicle from every nation from a single branch.
So yeah, someone interested in aircrafts only can spend thousands of hours touching nothing else than aircraft, which is perfectly fine by me, but I guess some people don’t want this to be the case for people that want to do exactly that but with tanks.
I don’t see they’re forcing air mains to grind some other branches to stay competitive in Air modes.
Even if CAS was perfectly balanced, there would still be people asking for TO mode since they want pure tank vs tank combat, which is perfectly valid.
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But there are SPAAs in the game because there is a combined arms aspect at least in RB, which means that if AB goes TO, then in arcade most of SPAAs are useless except of those that can act as tank destroyers as well. It’s not good to have a feature that doesn’t work in a mode at all, from perspective of developer it’s a wasted effort if those vehicles would only be useful in ground RB. Also it would be a friction point for players to jump from AB to RB if they realise that they need to grind all the AAs from scratch that they ignored before because AAs are useful in RB, and gaijin probably wants to reduce friction of going from AB to RB.
When a player gets bored of playing this specific mode, not specific vehicles. You can grind out few nations and be bored. Having option to play air or naval instead of installing a different game, while still you feel like you’re pushing forward your account in the game is better for gaijin then you leaving the game to go play for example world of warships. That is why it is important to have planes in the tank matches for gaijin - it’s an opportunity to extend the play time/reduce the risk of leaving the game. It doesn’t necessary mean it is something focused on you exactly/the type of player that you represent, but there are various cases that tend to be covered to optimise retention in this kind of game.
That’s the problem of air modes being the legacy mode - there would potentially be significantly higher friction from the community to change that, then solving CAS in ground. Also the other problem is that in ground getting air vehicle means going for something more powerful, while in air modes it would be really weird to go get the ground vehicle that is weaker than aircraft. That is unless the mode would be truly combined arms as it is with RB SQB and it was with AB SQB - but again, allowing players to go all air doesn’t really work well and that’s exactly why gaijin isn’t doing the actual “use whatever you want from the start” combined arms mode, but rather “call of duty airstrike/titanfall’s titan drop cooldown” implementation of combined arms.
Yes, it’s not even/fair between modes that air has its separate mode while ground has the air forced, but with air it would be more difficult to implement a balance that would actually make it worth it for players to play ground there.
That is correct and you are free to ask for it, while I’m free to comment on that as well. I’m not saying you shouldn’t ask for it. I would actually really like to have something like competitive mode that is just 4v4 where squads enter and only tanks are allowed like in the tournaments, where random matched up players don’t affect the match outcome, but with how many modes there are already and how many times TO was already asked in Q&A, I doubt it’ll happen.
From my perspective, it makes more sense to get to a point where the modes plane spawn mechanics are as close as possible to RB first, and then we will be able to show that in both modes the CAS is still too strong, because as long as modes have widely different implementations of this, it’s “divide and conquer” of the player base where each side screams “we have it worse”. Only coming together with RB players to do something about it will have chance, otherwise from devs perspective even if one side of ground players community would completely went on strike and leave the game, there’s still the other side.
All-in-all ask for small steps first. We only got removal of markers shown to the fighter planes after so many years. The closest we can get is either getting spawn system from naval that works, OR some kind of nerf/improvement in communicating that you’re getting a bomb on your head. Naval spawn system is bigger and more complex, but is already done, and bomb mechanics tweaks are something that would require development, but that’s potentially a small feature.
Yet Air mode is air only…
Wouldn’t it be realistic to have Patriots and S-300s then too? It works on both ways buddy.
EDIT:
On top of that, your last sentence is completly bollocks. It is actually the Air element in ground mode that is OP.
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Rewards from destroying planes is reduced so no.
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There is no public data showing the playerbase count for different game modes.
Air mode has SPAAs defending bunkers and escorting vehicles moving on the ground. They do exist. The problem of balance of this or vehicle type not catching up to the tier is a separate topic. We’re talking here about how the mode works.
Can you quote which sentence you are referring to? I’m not arguing that the CAS isn’t OP. I actually agree with that, but that’s the balance side of the problem, and I believe that removing of CAS completely, which would be going right to the extreme, isn’t the only valid solution.
Actually there is. Assuming that we want to only count actively playing people in specific time range, you can data mine the replays. It’s just that we’re all to lazy to data mine this. It doesn’t mean the data is not there, it’s just not given to us on a plater with the specific data points we are interested in.
Those are literally useless and not player controlled. You know exactly what i maent when i said that air is air only, yet you chose to be dishonest about it.
Last sentence in the quote :)
You literally can not make CAS fair, nor balanced in tank mode.
Yes replays is not public data showing the number of players playing specific game modes.
No, you are choosing to twist my words around.
I’m pretty sure I explained that if we are treating “the other type of vehicle” as something that you get to use as a reward like Call of Duty’s air strikes or Titanfall’s Titan drop, going from tank to an aircraft feels like a valid reward, while going from aircraft to a tank doesn’t, so this kind of mechanic doesn’t make sense for starting in a plane, while it makes sense when starting in tanks. It could for example make sense if the mode was with helicopters and the reward vehicle was a plane.
The valid point is that those are not controlled, so trying to be symmetric, we could have air strikes be not player controlled, but AI controlled planes - I’ll give you that I didn’t think about it before here. It could be like a heli air strike in call of duty and, the SPAA would still make sense to have it to defend against such special attack.
So this one?
Then I have no idea what you don’t get here - open top vehicles, the ones that rock solid and unpenetrable “front towards enemy” have a lot of counters that may not work in a game that has a defined front line and limited element of surprise. VFW or maybe even Maus would be kings of their BRs if there weren’t any CAS in the game. There is this problem that either you’re supposed to face the natural enemies, BUT you implement stats according to historical performance and as in this game you position those units/vehicles/aircraft against others based on statistics on how they perform, so that’s WT’s BR, OR you balance things in non-historical way to place specific vehicle in a bracket against another vehicle that you believe should be there. The problem is that in air modes the AAA guns are not a deterrent and this is a legacy thing of this mode being air players vs AI, but the AAA not being a deterrent is a whole problem of the game.
You can, you all just can not think of ways to do this because you are not game developers, so you only can think of ideas based on what you’ve already seen in existing games.
The main problem of AAA, turret-top guns etc not being a deterrent against CAS is a lack of human factor implemented. In context of tanks, the crew works as a proxy between player and functionalities of the vehicle - you can shoot, drive, reload as a single player. If commander dies, you don’t get killed, but you still play. If there’s track to be repaired or barrel to be replaced, you don’t have to walk out of the vehicle to do so, but there is a mechanic representing this based on the crew you have in the vehicle.
If we assume that pilot has to cover behind the armor plate, then in such situation pilot should have limited situational awareness, so whenever SPAA is shooting at your plane, or other plane is chasing you, limiting the awareness to just what you can see in front (and right behind with mirrors if the plane has them) with the similar effect like with high G-s/overload, would be the first thing that would increase effectiveness of SPAA. That is because if you’re not strafing right at the SPAA, then you wouldn’t really see properly where the fire is coming from - the limited awareness should also make it so that you don’t see precisely where the fire is coming from under side of the plane. This means that only situation where you still see the SPAA shooting at you correctly, would be either when you’re actually turned up side to it, which isn’t a given at all times, or when you’re exactly strafing at it, when it’s the easiest for SPAA to shot you down.
Human factor could also be implemented in a way that instructor forces you to evade when SPAA is shooting at you and bullets are near missing the pilot, and the higher the pilot level, the closest you can be shot before the pilot gets scared to forcefully evade or before he pulls up himself from getting too close to the ground. It’s all possible to do to balance things out.
Also the tank turret-top guns could work as in naval with a toggle that you can disable them automatically shooting at planes. Also planes could only have markers for vehicles that are scouted by your team. They also could only score points for killing only scouted vehicles and everything else would be not scored for example. There’s endless possibilities to balance things out and verify the balance with statistics, but you want to just go to the extreme and get rid of planes because that seems like an quickest easy way to you, but you don’t understand the point of view of the developer.
You can data-mine it here: Gaijin Entertainment - Single Sign On :
replays are showing the list of players. It means that you can go through each replay and write down the number of players playing this match. The data is there, you just have to process it. That is why I said we’re not given the number on a plater.
Yeah, i am doing it…
Sure. And how valid and fair is it for tankers? Something they have ZERO chance to fight against, while littly Billy with his 0.5 (tank on tank) K/D can just hop into a plane and get 6-10 kills with a few SPACE bar presses…
it is not a reward. A reward is something that a good performing player gets, that has no negative effect on the rest of the players.
Just play a few matches in tank assault, and you will not say this anymore :)
This SPAA still useful thing is such a BS. Look at any player’s stats, and what you will see, that they have a large amount of SPAA with which they have more tank kills than air kills. Many SPAA are better tank killers than plane killers.
In a supposed tank only mode, you can still ue them as light tanks/scouts, or tank destroyers.
Oooooor, you can shoose to not play them, like you likely not play every vehicle you unlock.
If you still want to use them in their intended role, you can always just play the other mode with planes.
Yes.
You can just balance the relative small amount of tanks, that are OP. Most of them have the only issue of being under BRd, because they are event/premium vehicles.
This “CAS is good because it counters OP tanks” is also such a BS. CAS players will always go for the highest number of kills, and the easiest kills. If they see a KV-1B, and a group of Panzer 4s (or even a single one), which one will get targeted? Spoiler alert: Not the KV.
Another thing, that i mention, before you would:
No, CAS is not a counter to spawncampers!
This would be such a BS. Oh, then WWII Japan would, or would not get this feature? You know, Kamikaze… Just this thing alone kills this idea.
You can not make a game too realistic, because it would make the game unplayable.
The rest above this quoted part is also rubbish.
That would be a welcomed addition, but would not make any difference.
Sealclubbers also don’t get any reward (basically, when you research a Leo 2A6 with a Panzer II, the reward is like 100 RP after a 20 kill game), yet they still do it…
And none of them makes it fair. Planes still don’t have to learn anything. What do you have to know to be effective as a tank?
1, 1000s of weak spots
2, 100s of reload times, armor pen stats, mobility stats, turret rotation, secondary weapons, gun depression, crew layout, armor angling, hiding your own weakspots, etc
3, 100s of key positions on many maps
4, distancing (especially in RB, but in AB too), fast and accurate aiming, etc
What do planes have to do to get tank kills?
1, Aim roughly at the enemy, press a single button/key, get the kill(s)
Many, many times i see awful players getting many kills with planes, when they play like absolute trash in tanks.
For a long time, i made screenshots of players who killed me with planes while i was in tanks (or attempted to kill me). I finally made a Java program, that can grab their kill and death number, and average them.
I already sorted 200odd number of player stats (i have a lot of other screenshots, so i have to sort these out), and their average K/D is 0.65 with tanks! When i have 1000 of them, i will take screenshots of player stats, that kill me with tanks, and then we can compare…
And when people are afraid to can a point, because they are easy kills for planes then.
In those cases, you can’t even make the “argument”, of planes having to spot their targets, because at least (but most of the time more than 1) player is in a 20m radius circle. Even randomly dropping a medium/small sized momb is likely to grant you with a kill…
Bbbbbbbut there are ground units in Air too…
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