What is?
I was saying that even non-fully covered vehicles end up fully covered with proper tactics
Oh so they’re tactical now? That’s a good thing then; to be tactical?
What are you saying here exactly
I’m saying you are making an argument now that use of bushes, in conjunction with the map foliage, is tactical. And to play tactically is good is it not? I’m saying you’re close to undermining your bush-hate whether you realize it or not.
I don’t think you understand quite what the complaint against bushes is. The problem is you can’t reasonably obtain them f2p.
Oh so we’re backtracking now. Ok.
Yeah sucks you can’t.
Backtracking? Can you explain? I think I’ve been very clear here.
Playing tactical is good if players begin with equal tools, or assymetric but equal tools.
Because bushes are only available through the battlepass (not-viable for anyone who does not play 2-3 hours every day and also gacha) or through real money purchase, they should not impact gameplay – ergo: it should be possible to turn them off.
For them to be permitted to impact gameplay they must be obtainable in a similar manner as an ace crew. Now, I hate crew skills with passion (P-51C10 or F6F-5 with and without crew skills is a very different plane when it comes to high-energy dogfights) it is worth mentioning that my progress towards unlocking an ace crew is equivalent between:
- Play 1 hour each day for 7 days. (7 hour total)
- Play 3.5 hours on saturday and sunday each (7 hour total)
- Play 7 hours during a crazy saturday marathon session (7 hours total)
- Play 1 hour each saturday evening for 7 weeks (7 hour total)
- Play 1 hour once per month for 7 months (7 hour total)
- Play 1 hour once per season for 1.75 years (7 hour total)
- Play once per year for 7 years (7 hour total).
The later examples are reduction to absurdity, but they demonstrate the difference excellently:
- Crew skills can be progressed whenever you want, in any manner, at any time of day, in any order of days.
- Crew skills can be progressed with as many breaks/gaps between gameplay as you need without losing progress
- Crew skills are obtained in a deterministic, predictable manner (you get exactly what it says on the box, no gacha).
I’d be fine with keeping the gacha, but presently battlepass violates the first two principles (you must play a specific amount each day in a very specific way where if you take a break you lose all accumulated progress).
I dont mind grinding for stuff in OSRS because it satisfies points 1 and 2. I could buy bonds to skip those grinds, but it’s not the only way to obtain progress in a way that respects me as a consumer and as a player.
Battlepasses don’t respect consumers and players due to their FOMO nature.
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I agree with that.
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Entirely ignoring the obvious effect of bushes breaking up the image, have people forgotten that these things… block thermals???
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Maybe for most bush players, but experienced players that play tournaments often know how to bush their tank exactly with this in mind.
It’s effectively impossible to tell where to shoot (other than the breech) if they bush up their turret enough to be unrecognizable at a brief glance in a hull-down position.
I can give you some examples, with some hints:
What tank is this?
Hint: It’s at the BR range of 9.3-10.3
Better yet, give yourself only ~10 seconds to identify it to better display a realistic situation.
What about this one?
Hint: It’s around 10.3 - 11.3
And this?
Hint: It’s around 9.7-10.7
Spoiler
This one should be relatively easy.
Hint: It’s around 9.0-10.0
Spoiler
This one, too, should be relatively easy (if you know your tanks).
Hint: It’s around 8.3-9.3
What about this one?
Hint: It’s around 11.0-12.0
Spoiler
And so you could just shoot the breech of all of them, and most definitely destroy their gun, but you can often miss out on the fact that for some of these vehicles I’ve shown, you can (just as easily) penetrate their turret cheek armour, or forehead, as they start peaking over a hill.
Although free-to-play players can get bushes, they cannot decide which ones they get (a lot of bushes Gaijin sells are not that good), and I have shown you that there is definitely an advantage of having them on your tank.
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I also like how bush defenders shield themselves behind expecting every player to become robocop and identify every vehicle in game in mere seconds by just looking at a pixel, it’s insane, we must think about the average player.
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Bushes can be taken down by machinegun fire and artilery nearby misses. I admit bushes can be annoying making harder to spot on distance.
That’s true, but go ahead and try do that in any long-range engagement without getting shot in the process 😅
Using machine gun fire is often not feasible, especially at higher tiers where reloading and gun handling is much faster.
You’d also let them (and other enemies) know where you are, which is a big no-no if you want to stay alive.
You’d be better off breeching them at that point, unless you managed to recognise their tank via other features, such as mobility, reload, engine sounds etc… or you could also check the kill feed for more info.
Even after you recognize their tank, you may not hit them / hit the right spot because it’s relatively difficult to remember the precise distance the weakspot is away from the barrel.
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Breeches and mantlets are often artificially weakened in order for people to have somewhere to shoot at even against hull down enemies. I’ve killed and been killed through the mantlet countless times, so exposing your barrel is enough to get you clapped.
Many tanks have weak spots right under the barrel as well, so snapping at turret cheeks might not be in your muscle memory either, especially at certain tiers.
I think the bigger issue lies in their ability to break up the shape of a tank, making you react much slower to the enemy.
For sure, but again, if you always have to go for around the breech, you are going to have to have worse reaction time than the enemy player, since you have to shoot for a small(er) area than them.
If you find out that you can just penetrate the cheeks, or explode their ammo, then you should go for it instead of the breech area (which may or may not get absorbed by the breech).
Here’s another good example:
This is the Shir 2, having really good turret armour at 10.0, and a relatively small breech area, with no forehead weakspot.
However, you can shoot the (relatively) small gunner viewport on the right cheek, which you can see before the breech area, and kills the Gunner + Commander.
Waiting to shoot for the breech after seeing the gun barrel just gives you less time to react before they shoot at you.
Now try to shoot that same spot with a bunch of bushes covering that spot:
It’s much more difficult (let alone know what you’re shooting at) than if it had no bushes at all.
Breech shots at lower tiers (where APHE is a thing) is much less consistent than in top tier too, so it’s not always a good idea to go for the breech.
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If you’ve never fallen victim to bushes, it means you can spot a tank even with 1 pixel visible. And identify it correctly and guess which way it’s facing.
Because, guess what, bushes affect my ability to distinguish the tank in all situations. Immobile weird bush in the open - ok, but what tank is it? Before my brain fully processes what I’m looking at, I’ve already lost 1-2 seconds while my enemy is already aiming at me, boom, dead.
Even if it’s moving - what tank is it? No idea. Where are his weakspots? No idea.
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“Just shoot the breech and pray that it was something you couldn’t 1-tap anywhere else”
It’s almost like going for the barrel each time you see an enemy – it’s not a good method of killing in majority of cases.
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I’ll add, that what kinda (not exactly) works at top tier, doesn’t work so well at WW2 tier:
it turns out it was KV-1 L11, I shot below the barrel, tough luck, because you can’t pen it there. Ded.
Or some funny variant of M4 with super-tough mantlet? Tough luck, ded.
Or it was SU-85M while you expected Su-85?
Tough luck, ded.
And people who say their spotting ability is unaffected. Damn, it must feel like playing on cheats. There’s a few pixels of a tank without bushes visible 1000m away? They instantly spot them among the trees and shadows. Nothing can hide anywhere, while normal losers have to scan their screen and miss a ton of vehicles anyway because they are stationary and “hard to see”.
Damn, they see a bush misplaced by 1m - they know in the very milisecond they looked at their screen, there’s a part of tank turret behind it and they know what tank too.
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Depends on what you’ve learned to shoot at.
Some players do snap shots at your breech area to disable you as fast as possible. I doubt it leads to most OHKs but having that approach can definitely save you.
Yeah that’s beneficial to tanks that can be penetrated without them even showing the barrel.
Probably, haven’t played lower tiers seriously for a long time, so can’t comment much on that.
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