I agree, I bought it yesterday and managed to grind to derbys in 20 matches. My very first match in the thing I got 6 kills, stock and without an expert crew (lol), thing is busted.
2 Likes
Turn rate is only half of a dogfight. Energy is the other half. The latter is arguably more important.
The P-59A will outturn everything at its BR. I will not argue that. However, it bleeds speed pretty quickly, and if a fight does not end in 1-3 turns, you will be forced to dive to replenish energy. That’s not to say it is incapable as a low speed fighter – rather, a slow target is easy to pick on, and the P-59 tends to attract a lot of enemies. Point being, it cannot replenish energy quickly, and if stuck on the deck, it is a free kill. It excels in offense, but lacks in defense apart from being able to reasonably dictate most 1v1s. However, it cannot balance the scales as easily if things go south.
On the contrary, the BI lacks much offensive capability, but is incredible for defense. With limited fuel and ammo, it does take skill to play. (While I have not used it in battle myself, I have both test flown and seen numerous videos on it. Not great evidence, but evidence nonetheless. I will back up my claims with the stat card as well.) It has quite a few things going for it. First of all, it has a TWR of 0.99 (as per the WT Wiki page) which allows it to climb almost vertically. Second, it has exceptional acceleration due to a light weight and the aforementioned thrust. This allows it to gain energy literally on demand. Finally, small size makes it harder to hit. Albeit a small advantage, but a spray is less likely to hit you. In any sense, this gives you an incredible advantage of positioning both in and out of combat. It can accelerate on low throttle, meaning it can accelerate for much more than 2 minutes ingame. If in an unfortunate position in a dogfight, you can simply throttle up, climb away, and reset the fight. The 23mms will also pack a punch on enemy planes, but 90 rounds is incredibly limiting. I’ll give you that.
In any sense, it excels in defensive capability. Its stat card backs this up. It has a kill-spawn ratio of 1.18 (just behind the J6K1 at 1.20) but a kill-death ratio of 2.18 (way ahead of the J6K1 at 1.68). This difference shows that it is incredibly survivable. As a matter of fact, it only dies in 55.5% of matches made (196,860/354,678=~0.555). It is also the best performing plane of 6.7 by KDR and has the 3rd best KDR overall, while the P-59A places 7th at 5.7 and 81st overall. This would be more telling of how aggressive each plane is played, but nevertheless, KDR is usually a good indicator.
P-59A and BI stat cards, via StatShark
To further back my point that energy is more important than turn time, the Swedish J20 (2.0 monoplane) has a turn time of 16.0 seconds. Compare this to planes like the American F2A-1 (tech tree, 2.0) which has an 18.2 second turn time. The American F2A-1 has a higher KDR, despite a notoriously newer playerbase, because the J20’s engine is both underwhelming and prone to overheating. The J20 in a high energy position could turn in circles around most other planes of its BR, but it can’t, due to a poor powerplant. Regardless, it still places at a respectable 19/49 of 2.0 planes. Even though this is kind of an extreme example, it does sit at a BR where energy management (and the ability to produce it) plays a key role.
J20 and F2A-1 stat cards, via StatShark
I agree with this, just hard to replenish lost speed.
I notice it most in dives. It’s able to get out of it usually due to an exceptionally large wing area, but it does lose a lot of maneuverability at ~400MPH.
I feel like it’s the kind of plane you’d have to play either level or upwards. I’ve felt how low drag it is in test drives, and it’s definitely a pain to bleed speed.
Not the best argument to go for considering the BI is the best performing 6.7 (see above) and could be more than happy facing the slower accelerating early jets at 7.0-7.3. The P-59A does perform well for its BR and would be fine at 6.0, but can’t keep up with later props/early jets.
No wonder sim and naval are so neglected
Unless you intentionally stall out the P-59A, that is the only time you won’t get energy back quick, every other situation is not a problem for it.
And despite its large size, it’s durable and turns like a god.
Vs.
The bi, which can go fast in a straight line, and if you’re lucky the cannons actually do damage.
Btw I wouldn’t go to stat shark for those comparisons….
Mainly because P-59s are fighting other fighters, generally, BI’s hunt bombers due to the low ammo count them scoot back to base.
Playing grb i definitely prefer the P-59A, and in most circumstances I do.
I think they’re even the same br for sim. So why not RB?
Lastly, that battle pass strike master, and some of these newer lower tier high turning jets kinda make the bi irrelevant. The ammo count is too low to be effective, as you dump half your ammo in a burst or two, and the enemy is typically always maneuvering.
In the case of the P-59A you have so much ammo you can force the enemy to bleed speed, then take them out.
That isn’t a luxury in the Bi unfortunately. It’s a bit odd it only has 90 rnds to be honest. I would’ve expect like 140~ 160~
It gets energy back quick only if you dive in my experience. Usually I wait until the first engagements happen before I attack — usually there’s someone much higher that loves to dive down if I spearhead. It is definitely a jack of all trades, except for energy fighting.
If you focus on straight line speed in the BI, you’re playing it wrong. Every BI I’ve seen has given me a run for my money, whether it be in early jets or my very own P-59. I rarely see them go after bombers, and if they do, that’s another point I made about its survivability.
What do you recommend as an alternative?
No jet is below 6.7 in sim. Sim also offsets the P-59s disadvantages (i.e. climb rate and acceleration) due to the sheer size of the map and long matches. It is also utterly useless in any match above 7.0. In RB it would be absolutely useless, considering it would be facing almost exclusively other early jets that are mountains better than it in everything except turn rate. Genuinely one of the worst BR ideas I’ve seen on this thread.
It still possesses many strengths over other planes of its BR. To say the best performing plane in game (since the only ones with higher KDRs are relatively new, niche low tier planes) needs a buff is insanity. It has proven time and time again that it is incredibly capable. With low ammo count you should be getting behind unaware players anyways, either via dive or climb.
Iffy strategy, good late game. It also has similar (if not less) ammo per gun than the Mustangs of it’s BR if I remember correctly, just with half as many guns. Burst mass, save for the 37mm, can be anemic compared to the P-51s, but those are already good. It’s only anemic in comparison, but does pretty alright for the BR. I have, however, run out of ammo on more than one occasion because .50s just didn’t set any fires.
You make a lot of good points but it definitely doesn’t need to move down, as it is by far one of the best planes in the game, if not the best. It does take skill to do well in due to ammo, but the ability to dictate any fight without really taking any damage goes a long way. Energy is defense, defense is offense.
EF-2000 (AESA), Typhoon (AESA), F-2000A (AESA) Su-30SM2, Su-30MKM, Rafale C, Rafale M
BR Change: 14.3 → 14.7
Assuming Gaijin will automatically raise BR level.
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F-15E, F-15I Ra’am, JAS39E
BR Change: 14.0 → 14.3
Decompression.
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Su-27SM, J-11B
BR Change: 13.7 → 14.0
Decompression
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Su-30MK2 AMV, Su-30MKK, J-11A
BR Change: 13.3 → 13.7
Decompression
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F-18C (Sweden)
BR Change: 14.0 → 13.7
Lacks AIM-120C5, worse than the F/A-18C MLU at the same BR.
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F-14B
Add AIM-9M.
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F-14A
Add AIM-9L.
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F-4C
Add AIM-7E Sparrow. This plane doesn’t have any countermeasures and some planes it has to fight at 11.0 are basically impossible to kill if the enemy is competent. Adding AIM-7E would help it marginally in high altitude scenarios.
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F-4F Early
BR Change: 10.7 → 10.3
No countermeasures and constantly has to face missiles.
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F-104S.ASA
BR Change: 12.0 → 11.7
Dead plane.
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MiG-29 (9-12A), MiG-29 (9-12B), MiG-29 (9-13)
BR Change: 12.7 → 12.3
Remove R-27ER
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MiG-29 Sniper
BR Change: 12.7 → 13.0
Add R-73 and R-27ET.
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Mirage 2000-5F has the highest stats out of all 14.0 aircraft, should move up as well.
2 Likes
this is not enough tbh
the br cap should be even higher
Both for ground too.
BVVD said in his video that they won’t decompress the game more due to not trying to increase load times.
Alternatively, give it IRCM pods.
1 Like
This would result in being up BR’d for sure. AIM-7Es aren’t great missiles, but they’re still legitimately difficult to kinematically defeat within their (Admittedly small) window of effective range. They would be by far the best RADAR missiles below 11.0, and you get 4 of them.
Really, the only fix for the F-4C is to completely replace it with the F-4D, which has countermeasures. Might need to go up, and I’d need to see how it handles before I’d advocate giving it AIM-7Es as well.
The F-4C can be converted into an event plane, or just removed from the game like the Chinese PT-76 was.
2 Likes
We have to be realistic, they’re not going to go from 14.3 to 15.3 or even 15.0
1 Like
NF-5A → 11.0 or 11.3
J-7D → 11.0
Long overdue
2 Likes
And that’s the problem. It needs a 16.0. ALL jet tiers are a mess (i really can’t say for props at this point because i don’t play much props unfortunately) .
You start with WW2 jets vs Korean era and keeps going bad.
Example , F-4C , you can give IRCM pod and i think ALE-38 chaff dispenser pod. The plane can carry up to AIM-9P variants and AIM-7E2… Just give it 9J and 7E , the pods and get it 10.7. You don’t have to make it OP. Just a bit more …interesting. Even if it plays a lot in that BR it is, it’s because it’s in a popular tree and before F-4E and F-15s that people want to play.
They can even implement this
in a form,
that will bring variety and more fair MM. (people don’t even know the proposal exists)…
They can give a SL talisman as well , so people won’t just stick to the premiums and actually try and play what they like and GJ will get money like crazy. In the end combining the talismans will give a profit just a bit lower than the premiums in the tier, but it would sell a lot better because people would play what they want and have fun.
All those are simple things… a days work. Won’t cost , will give profit and it’s hell more relevant to try and ^fix^ a specific vehicle with a down/up rank in a super compressed tiering altogether (where the best move you can do is like half mistake , not correct anyway…).
I wouldn’t say the AIM-7E is difficult to defeat since a simple roll will make them miss, it’s just that people are not used to seeing them in lower tiers and most planes below 9.7 do not have RWR’s. The AIM-7E is not an overpowered weapon, my point is that the F-4C is too mediocre and does not have any sort of advantage to use over other planes. There are definitely 9.7 and 9.3 aircraft better than the F-4C, and getting uptiered is already miserable.
15.3 → Rafale, Su-30SM2
15.0 → Rafale M, Eurofighter (AESA), J10C (with ws10b)
14.7 → F-15C GE, Su-30SM, Eurofighter
14.3 → F-15E, Su-27SM, J-11B, F/A-18E
14.0 → F-15C, F-16C, Grippen C, MiG-29SMT (with R-77-1), J-10A, J-11A, F/A-18C (late)
13.7 → Su-30MK…(all variants), Jf-17, F-16A Blk15…(all variants), MiG-29N, Su-34
13.3 → Su-27S, F-15A, Grippen A, Sea harrier, AV8B, J8 (arh one), Kfir C10 blk60, F4F kws, Ja-37DI
13.0 → MiG-29G…(and equivalents), F/A-18C, Aim9m f16s
12.7 → MiG-29 9.13 (with r73 and no r27), F/A-18A
Not mentioned stuff at their current br, unless it seems obviously wrong.
This is somewhat realistic since gaijin won’t add max br to like 16.0, still I would like to add more brs by splitting 13.0 and 13.3
Chinese stuff could be placed a bit wrong because I have never played them and have not much idea of it, unlike other ones.
If gaijin buffs amraam turn perf decently (pls gaijoob) all amraam carriers at 13.7 and above will move up a br
14.3 and above is rank 9 (as rank 7 is from 10.3 to 12.0 (ignore the 10.0 su25), hence 12.3 to 14.0 is rank 8, hence 14.3 onwards shouls be rank 9)
2 Likes
bump them up to 16.0 honestly.
Absolutely, all fox 3 carriers should be as far away from 12.7’s as possible.
I’d rather have multipath removed so people start evolving and learning different tactics, BVR is a valid playstyle and genuinely wins overall, if you fly high you have the advantage and you can rain down missiles on people that can’t really fight back since theyre constantly forced defensive aaaand nope, multipath exists and they can just fly straight and low and insta defeat all your missiles. Fun!
1 Like
Why? It’s not even good.
1 Like
Because it has amraams facing F-4S/Mirage F1/etc?
You cannot remove multipathing and keep 16v16.
If you are firing top down, mutlipathing is ignored in most instances already.