Also you don’t understand how reload work from plane perspective.
You have to be suicidial to attack an SPAA that has ballistics of ZSD. But people sometimes get lucky and catch you while reloading. But it’s just a gamble, not really worth making most of the time.
I will not go after ZSD because “he might be reloading”, as he can insta-delete me from halfway across the map.
I will attack Wirbelwind and shoot it long range, it shoots back, but I don’t care as I’m outside his effective range, if I then decide to commit, then it’s simply because I am confident he’s not hitting me before he dies.
Because as i already said, Praga is actually bad SPAA, so id better bring many APDSes with me.
Even if we consider using default belt, it wont help its shakiness and incosistency in accuracy
which it isnt?
Its a better SPAA for short bursts thats for sure. But only 40pen for tanks.
i USUALLY attack BtR-ZD and british 23mm slinger. You need to stay ~1-1.3km away and shake a bit so it wont hit you. And then as it reloads, you have time to turm. aim. shoot. turn away. you DONT have such privilege with neither Kugelblitz (fast reload + protcted aganst guns and rockets), nor Ostwind (infinite belt). Tho rockets work pretty good if shot 3-4 of them.
I have always held a very contrarian opinion regarding SPAAG, based on both my personal preferences and also what I see the majority of other people do with them in matches, as much of what I play is in this BR range.
As I view this problem as very complicated, I wrote the details inside spoilers so people can read them as they wish.
Problem Details
Many SPAAG were clobbered by the half-baked armor penetration calculator (Ostwinds), others saw targeted nerfs to their tank-killing ability (MK103, 20mm Rh202/its copies), others are still missing their best rounds (almost every SPAAG except for the 20mm Oerlikons and their derivatives, the ZSU-37-2, and various MG-only SPAAGs), and all autocannon subcaliber rounds have blatantly-wrong calculated armor penetration. On top of that we have city clusterfuck maps that make finding good vantage points to scan for CAS difficult until they’re almost on top of you, those same city clusterfuck maps enabling SPAAG to routinely get into point-blank range to shred tanks, the general playerbase WANTING to shred tanks because it’s honestly fun and funny, terrible interactions between volumetric shells and non-volumetric old armor models, CAS in general being implemented as a sleazy revenge powerup, a BR-adjustment system that overly-punishes SPAAGs for shredding tanks despite current gameplay basically forcing them to do so to be considered effective, and finally several trees just having problematic gaps (partially as a result of the prior point on how BRs are adjusted).
It’s layer upon layer of slapped-on “balans” changes band-aided onto an infected, oozing wound which keeps soaking through over time and demanding more bandages.
And what is my solution to this gods-forsaken mess?
Solution Details
Do what any researcher would do after struggling to get a particular method to work and change the method of how they are “balanced” completely in a 180-degree pivot, while intentionally ignoring people crying about said changes, because listening to that crying is how we got this mess in the first place.
The vast majority of the playerbase clearly wants to use them as tank-killers, so why continue fighting this tendency? If, despite all the nerfing over more than a decade, the average player still wants to shred tanks with their SPAAG, why not embrace that instead of fighting a losing battle until the end of time?
Gameplay mechanics of how to “best” use MG/Cannon SPAAG also frankly demand such if they are to be effective, due to limited practical engagement ranges of those SPAAGs to around 500-1000 m - SPAAGs need to advance with the front line to protect the front line, but the average player will not move beyond spawn if said SPAAG cannot at least reliably pen the sides and rears of most opponents, because who would willingly be cannon fodder in any game that is supposed to be fun?
Then of course, the armor penetration calculator badly needs updating to better-reflect reality. We saw how most tank-caliber APDS got their penetration corrected to realistic numbers, so clearly it is possible to use a formula and get close enough on all APCRs and all autocannon-size APDS as well. As one example of how bad this is, I’ll use the Rh202’s DM63 APDS - the real penetration data for that round suggests 90mm at 1000m distance, not the 63mm point-blank it does currently. All APCR is underperforming by similar degrees, not just autocannons.
Of course, with real numbers but highly-unrealistic urban maps being the majority of the map rotation, this would upset a lot of people, but when the alternative is sticking with the impossible-to-solve mess we’ve got, I say it’s overdue to tell the people whining about dying to SPAAG in their tanks to fuck off, forever.
Now how would I prevent SPAAGs from “breaking” gameplay with realistic armor penetration? I would utterly delete the ability to shoot out gun barrels from the game, and again tell anyone who complains otherwise to fuck right off. That way, SPAAGs cannot “track-&-barrel-torture” tanks to death that they cannot pen, and cannot run around corners to melt barrels of opponents before they can react, either. If SPAAG can no longer cripple any opponent unless they are able to penetrate its actual armor layout, then now the only applicable advice to someone complaining about an SPAAG is shut up and shoot it. If you are using something thin-skinned enough that SPAAG can melt that frontally without barrel cheese, oh well, it’s a downside of your vehicle choice, and therefore unworthy of any pity/compensation.
Fixing the armor penetration calculator would also render the few armored SPAAGs considerably more vulnerable too (Coelian especially, given the years-long debate over 90mm T33 APBC being designed to UFP Panthers yet it mostly can’t do that ingame).
Of course, we all have had those “oh that’s bullshit” deaths by SPAAGs squeezing rounds through microscopic armor holes/seams. The only way to truly fix this is giving every single tank a fully-volumetric armor model so there are no seams between plates to exploit in the first place. Fixing cupola-shooting ability requires APHE be properly nerfed, which it still has not due to the half-baked vote on testing the proposed spall change over a year ago.
There are many other necessary changes here to the entire game’s map design and overall implementation of CAS mechanically, but ceasing clobbering SPAAGs over what gameplay encourages is a good start.
The truth will set the game free.
2 Likes
Yeah what about those of us that wouldn’t mind losing the OP AT ammo given the entire line of SPAA is all Tank destroyers until 12.0? In exchange gaijin ahistorically nerf the ammo pen and bring the velocity to realistical levels.
So you essentialy bet on no other SPAAs around, your opponent sitting in the open and you guessing when he’s reloading, at 1300m I hit people with Praga fairly often BTW regardless od what they’re doing.
Quite a lot of things can go wrong, while Ostwind can be just sniped using 45mm from 1100m away and 1-shot or hosed won with Hispanos, and Kugel is obly a problem at sub 1000m distances, which usually means it either sits back or dies to some tank rather sooner than later.
Damn man, good read and very intelligent approach to issues.
Chapeau bas.
1 Like
I completely agree. Improve the penetration and damage models, improve the maps, and rebalance properly.
I’ve always found the things the devs have done absurd. In the early years of the game, when players had brilliant ideas, the devs ignored them completely, and now, with players doing selfish ODL, rage CAS, and lemming train, they complain and demand garbage, and the devs implement it. Hahaha, this is a joke.
2 Likes
Unfortunately, what you’re asking for is just unrealistic. The general playerbase likes killing tanks with autocannon buzzsaws (even I do, within realistic reason). So no matter how many times you keep “nerfing” them, the people who like doing it will keep finding something else to use in an endless game of whack-a-mole. It’s not solveable unless you go so extremely far to where you make autocannons utterly useless and thereby all vehicles with such weapons totally pointless to use.
I know a losing battle when I see one, hence why I recommend a sharp pivot. No differently than how Nuclear Thunder was a pivot away from the “Toxic Fighter Main” crowd whose desire for “uninterrupted skill-based dogfights” bled Air RB dry of all its flavor for the past decade, we need a similar frame-shift mutation with how autocannon vehicles are treated.
Fully embracing them means you stop punishing them for tank-killing, intentionally lowering the BRs of quite a few of them to where its normal for them to kill tanks, give as many as is practical their missing advanced rounds, globally un-nerf all APCR and APDS postpen, globally remove all subcaliber shell shattering, use better formulaic calculations for APCR and autocannon APDS penetration, and instead you go after the maps and old armor models which enable the “bullshit” kill potential AAs and IFVs currently have. Embracing their antitank ability does not mean the bullshit cannot be cut out.
Glad you both like what I said. I am applying my PhD mentality to solving this game’s longstanding issues. If what you tried before isn’t working, and going further with brute force in that direction is not practical, then you pivot to a different approach entirely. That’s all it honestly is.
Oh I know gaijin has been actively doing that with swedish SPAA. Literally none are good at their SPAA role their are all just TD’s lmao
From 1.7-12.0
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Truth is you haven’t seen nothing yet - all of their 40mm Bofors platforms should get a slightly more advanced APDS than what the reserve tanks for Sweden have now, with 120-130mm pen depending on if its an L/60 or L/70 Bofors.
Imagine that round, with globally un-nerfed APDS spalling, with no subcaliber artificial shattering nonsense. Yeah the truck probably doesn’t need it, but everything from the ANTI-II upwards damn well should get it.
Force-feed the whiners lethal autocannons until they cry themselves to sleep, grow a set, and just shoot it dead.
I know, I have some of their docs lol
1 Like
one, the less crew of the amx 10p is pointless, when its 1 person, the sub has 3 of 4 crew members shoved in the front of the vehicle literally sat next to each other, and has a FULLY exposed gunner, youre far more survivable in the amx 10p thanks to the fact a light mg spray doesnt murder your gunner.
two, the mobility of the sub is actually far worse than the amx10p, the hp/t is only 4.2, which seems like alot, until you realize both are still above 20hp/t. and thats the ONLY strength the sub has, the amx 10p is 5km/h faster forward, and 50km/h faster in reverse, that reverse is a massive strength youre forgetting.
and finally third, firepower is on the amx 10p side, sure the sub has a higher rof, but 1/3 the ammo meaning youre reloading much more often and burning through your ammo supply while trying to fight a plane, in fact its too much to the point of being a handicap in most situations besides someone flying directly at you, or above you in a straight path, also youre heavily implying the amx 10p rof is unusable, but that isnt the case seeing 740rpm is still high enough to hit fast moving targets, heck it still usable in 7.7 and 8.0 lineups, youre only gonna struggle against mid cold war jets, something all non radar spaa suffer.
almost forgot my last point, the amx 10p is objectively better than the sub in pretty much every way besides elevation and rof, so it should be above the sub, but it does need to go down back to 5.7 where it belongs.
it also means we can get some dumb french spaa, like the amx 13 with twin 20mms, or the amx 13 dca
It still has bigger chances to survive tank cannon shots and will live longer under aircraft fire.
Main gun shot, .50 cow and 20mm light spray can murder your entire tank not just gunner.
“Only” 17% worse engine performance, “only”.
Which you reach slower.
Can admit this one is useful.
Yes it does burn through ammo more but it can be mitigated by simply not spraying and using short bursts. Not a big problem with proper trigger discipline.
I only said its worse.
But your bursts will be less tight and precise due to slightly bigger interval between shots.
This is big point for sub 1 2 as spaa. 50 degree is nowhere near to 80. Also amx10p has bit worse depression, 8 vs 10.
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Yes you do? How would you otherwise attack an SPAA?
You are the oplane, you are to choose if to attack, and you have best spotting point. YOu can choose where and how to attack that SPAA) So when you see the SPAA being alone or the SPAA being not alone, but other SPAAs arent paying attention to you - its your point to attack!
Yes, you are to guess based on the shots seen and movement of the SPAA. Its called obsevation.
Would love to see that happen
same as with Praga. Ostwind 2 offers much sturdier barrage of shots and IS protected better against most low caliber munitions.
which you are required to cross to attack him or the targets he protects, thus why i tell to keep 1300 away from them SPAAs
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If APHE goes off like a grenade and never fails to detonate then APCR rounds should never shatter either.
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They should just copy paste APDS code to APCR tbh
Early APDS has a tendency to shatter at times too. Conqueror for example. So hopefully they can just remove that type as well.
Completely nonsensical to have a round performing without faults and far more effective than reality, and then have all these other rounds be “realistic”.
3 Likes
Selective realism.
Bombs should also ricochet off the ground, shatter or bury themselves in so deeply that the explosion will hardly effect tanks unless dropped like in real life.
But that most likely will not get changed or suddenly dumb bombs become nearly useless against tanks, like in RL.
Well, we still have superior bomb drop accuracy, so there’s that.
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So I guess bombs have just never been used throughout history, and the idea of dropped bombs was just one mass hallucination cause they would “shatter or bury themselves” when hitting the ground at 100’s of miles per hours.
Oh, and while we’re at it, air-launched rockets are long overdue for accuracy buffs. They literally use 1-1 identical stabilization methods that bombs use, and that modern shells and missile of all types use (if you hadn’t guessed already, I’m talking about fin stabilization) yet for some reason, Uncle Toms will straight up fire with 20° of spread. Rockets should, at a minimum, be as accurate as bombs and fin-stabilized tank shells.