5.3-6.7 SPAA balance is pretty bad

[Loofah]

So, hear me out.
At 5.3 we have SUB I-II with excellent mobility and gun that has very long range and very high ROF, capable of 1-shotting any single engine prop (thx for real sh*tter 3.0, Gaijin).
At 5.3 we also have Ostwind II, which has pathetic penetration, mediocre range, mediocre ROF, bad mobility and armor that is just thick enough to trigger every APHE out there.
Oh and 37mm M-geschoss is laughably unreliable, as it oftentimes barely deals any damage for whatever reason.
We move up, and we have ZD63/PG87 which has like twice the range of Ostwind, waaay better ROF, way faster rounds that hit just as hard, it has A LOT better mobility and it somehow is only 1 BR step higher.
It’s also even deadlier vs planes than SUB I-II because it has EVEN MORE range.
WHY?
At 6.0 we have Zerstorer which has 0 armor, is huge and only has fun depression to the front, so GL firing while flanking or at flanking enemy. When firing at planes, the thing is horrible thanks to super small magazines. It’s essentialy worse than SUB I-II in every metric.
BTR-ZD is also way worse than ZD63, only winning in mobility, yet it sits at 6.0, it has worse AP capability than SUB I-II though, but lets say, it’s tiny bit better
Then we move to 6.3 - Praga has very, very good guns, over 1000m/s, great ballistics. While power to weight seems pretty bad at around 10,5HP/ton, thanks to wheeled chassis it can go very fast around most maps.
It is worse than ZD63 in every way, but straight penetration, though. 2 BR steps higher.

We go to 6.7 - Kugelblitz has some armor, but guns absolutely suck at this BR. It also has way worse mobility than Praga, fuses APHE. It just doesn’t cut it. Kugel’s HVaP is horrible and belts are kinda OK, as HVAP + 2xM-geschoss is at least fairly universal.

And I wonder, why is by far the best SPAA out of the bunch 5.7?
ZD could go to 6.3 and still have 0 competition. SUB I-II could go to 6.0 and still be one of the best SPAA around.
Why do they sit so low?

Also, other SPAAs with high velocity 20mms around the BR are also super good vs planes, but they have 0 anti tank capability, as post war 20mm API/HVAP round has like 33% of its real life performance vs angled and maybe 66% of real life performance vs flat, on top of shattering on wet cardboard.
This means they are spawned way less often, which means Yak-9K and UT do whatever they want.
It’s just bad game design.

IMO we need 2 things - BR adjustments and long needed fix for 20mm HVAP.

[Terminated_800]

@Loofah

long needed fix for 20mm HVAP.

we need a fix to all HVAP and APCR, it sucks at the moment

[Beeschurger]

Lets not forget the absolute unit of an AA that is Bosvark, a parody of BTR-ZD to some extent, which is the last SPAA at 5.3 before Falcon

Or french TPK 641, a french take on middle eastern Toyota Hilux, that too is somehow expected to last until AMX-30 DCA.

[Loofah]

Yeah, but in case of 20mm, it is bad to the point of being 100% useless. At least with Kugel and Praga I score kills, in case od Praga, I routinely kill Tigers, as 90+mm of pen do the work even at some angle.
With 20mm killing a goddamn Hellcat feels like an accomplishment.

[Loofah]

These 2 don’t have to easy. And with French vehicle having only access to pew-pew APCR, it’s just sad. It works vs planes, but god damn.

[Herojure24]

@Beeschurger

Or french TPK 641, a french take on middle eastern Toyota Hilux, that too is somehow expected to last until AMX-30 DCA.

Just give me an enclosed version of that and it can last until the 30DCA no issue.

@Loofah

And with French vehicle having only access to pew-pew APCR, it’s just sad. It works vs planes, but god damn.

I once managed to kill a jumbo with it. And then most of the other times it struggles to kill open top vehicles and wet paper APCs

[Pheonix_RX01]

0/10 not enough swedish bias

[CmdrVince]

@Loofah

At 5.3 we also have Ostwind II, which has pathetic penetration, mediocre range, mediocre ROF, bad mobility and armor that is just thick enough to trigger every APHE out there.

But a gun you don’t ever have to reload and a ton of crew to go with it. Also, the APHE on the 37mm is very good, so if you get the chance to use it, its killer.

@Loofah

We move up, and we have ZD63/PG87 which has like twice the range of Ostwind, waaay better ROF, way faster rounds that hit just as hard, it has A LOT better mobility and it somehow is only 1 BR step higher.

Yes. Because it only has a small capacity magazine and a long reload to go with it. So if you miss in the two second burst you get with the ZSD, or if you have multiple air targets, you are waiting another 20 seconds before you can engage them again.

@Loofah

BTR-ZD is also way worse than ZD63, only winning in mobility, yet it sits at 6.0, it has worse AP capability than SUB I-II though, but lets say, it’s tiny bit better

It’s played more often then the ZSD, and has better survivability then the ZSD. It’s also quicker and has better targeting speeds. If you want it lower, tell people not to use it in an AT role. Also, while having worse AP capability then the SUB-I-II, it has better AA capability (20mm HE for the Rh202 is still crap, as is HVAP capability- APDS is the saving grace there).

Anyway, having played most of these SPAAG, their ratings make sense. Where they sit is fine as of now, except for maybe the Zestorer and 100% the British Bosvark which could go down a slight bit in BR. Overall though I wouldn’t adjust any of their Battle Ratings as that screws up the whole lineup.

[Kievskiy_Minipig]

@Loofah

At 5.3 we have SUB I-II with excellent mobility and gun that has very long range and very high ROF, capable of 1-shotting any single engine prop

And france has amx10p at 6.3 with less crew and worse mobility and worse firerate. Belt size is higher but I dont think its worth 1.0 br difference and disadvantages I listed above.

[Pheonix_RX01]

Imo it’s a far better LT hunter but that’s just my preference, I’d rather have a SPAA and not a TD personally but I don’t work for snail. Sub is better SPAA but def worse survivability especially given open top.

[Pangolin_Fan]

Nothing to see here. Just your monthly German skill issue post.

[Herojure24]

@Kievskiy_Minipig

And france has amx10p at 6.3 with less crew and worse mobility and worse firerate

And bad elevation. It’s an APC that gaijin classified as an SPAA for reasons. It even gets scouting.

[Pheonix_RX01]

Tbf gaijin does that a lot, we have a lot of recon and apc vehicles listed as SPAA

[QTip_44]

None of Zerstorer, Sub, nor ZD have armor that will protect them vs anything greater than mgs.
Kugel actually has armor that can defend against strafing from above and against some autocannons.

Kugel and Zerstorer guns have better pen than both Sub and ZD

You comment on Zerstorer small belts - but maybe forget that’s 4x30 rounds being shot into the air - more than enough to bring down the CAS and then have time to reload.

Praga might have decent ROAD speed and guns, but, like others you criticize, has no armor. It also has the worst turret rotation of the group. And the ROAD speed is just that. Off road the wheeled vehicles like this are not nearly as maneuverable.

They all have pluses and minuses, but for whatever reason Gaijin seems to give a lot of weight on the ability to destroy ground vehicles. Just look at the Falcon for example.

Below are the Air kills/spawn. Ostwind2 is best followed by Zerstorer and ZSD. Sub I-II is last in that group.

Ost2 0.40
Zer 0.39
ZSD 0.36
BTR 0.32
m53/59 0.31
Kugel 0.31
Sub 0.28

[KillaKiwi]

Also never considered the Ostwind II bad for AA.
Quite the opposite.

Maybe not the best ballistics but still better than German 20mm.
Combined with never ending barrage and good RoF for the caliber/range.

The Mineshell damage is now made redundant but it still kills most of the time in one hit.

[Loofah]

@CmdrVince

But a gun you don’t ever have to reload and a ton of crew to go with it. Also, the APHE on the 37mm is very good, so if you get the chance to use it, its killer.

It’s useful at 3.3
At 5.3 - not exactly.
And since it’s not fast, fairly tall, this thing really struggles.
As an aircraft user, I generally ignore Ostwind IIs, unless they really move far forward, they are no issue.
SUB I-II?
Insta-death.
ZD63?
Insta death from halfway across the map.

@QTip_44

Kugel and Zerstorer guns have better pen than both Sub and ZD

They are HVAP and therefore suck.
77 pen is just not enough for Soviet or US heavy sides. It basically can penetrate a Sherman from the side, and Chaffee/M41 from the front if you launch around 50 shells at it, because 4 out of 5 will shatter.
SUB I-II will just turn it into a collander.

@QTip_44

It also has the worst turret rotation of the group

The guns can fire at way longer range than Kugel.

@KillaKiwi

The Mineshell damage is now made redundant but it still kills most of the time in one hit.

I have a video where Bf 109 F4 gets hit 3 times and he gets some orange parts and on 3rd hit loses a wingtip. Amazing damage.

I routinely hit single-engine planes 2 times and they keep flying.

Also, seriously, ballistics kinda suck.
The only thing 37mm M-shell can rival is 20mm HE from French vehicle and 23mm of BTR-ZD, as they have almost identical ballistics.
Except 20mm and 23mm have A TON better ROF which makes hitting moving targets a lot easier.

However, SUB I-II has superior ballistics compared to 37mm:

BTW, why the hell do we get flight time only in entire seconds and not fractions?
Why?

[KillaKiwi]

@Loofah

Also, seriously, ballistics are not “worse”.
They absolutely SUCK MONKEY BALLS.
The only thing 37mm M-shell can rival is 20mm HE from French vehicle and 23mm of BTR-ZD, as they have almost identical ballistics.

It may look bad because the other calibers, like 30mm fired at 1000m/s, are better but they are absolutely useable to shoot down 5.3-6.3 aircraft.

[Creastroy]

And these SPAAs are fighting new zuni slingers, 45mm carriers etc. who are all driving more conventional cas planes out the game, making it similar to cold war: OP SPAA, OP few planes, underpowered majority

And at the same time keeping ground mains moaning for the still op few planes

[KillaKiwi]

@Loofah

BTW, why the hell do we get flight time only in entire seconds and not fractions?
Why?

Good question. At least they added flight time, which is a step forward.

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/aBtOTpqMlKZN

[Loofah]

Well, thing is, when you lose on mobility, penetration and ROF, while also having shorter range and open top, it quickly stops being funny. Meanwhile Chinese vehicle has a lot better range.

It would nicely show the differences if we could look how far the shell goes in 2.5s