in the end my opinion didn’t change, it still deserves 10.7 and I argumented that
The 2S38 is a SPAA so compare it with other SPAAs.
In the current state the 2S38 should be between the Lvkv and the Otomatic at Br 10.7.
Push the Lvkv to Br 10.3 for having search radar.
The 2S38 not having a search radar is no exuse, cause the Sidam25 sits at the same BR like Gepard and has not one either.
In conclusion the 2S38 is purposely underrated tank.
-Its not a light tank and was not intended to be one. -Its should not have HE-VT, but got one over the not working AHEAD of Puma.
-The single feed system should have a drawback, being able to switch munitions as fast as double feed systems is not “realistic”
-Same ready-rack-reload time (2.5s) as Lvkv despite having bigger calibre. Otomatic has 10secs. So it should be higher.
5 Likes
Did you really just compare the AFT-09 (a tiny tank with great gun depression) with the 2S38 (a huge bus with horrible gun depression)?
It was obvious that you’re a facetious person just from the BMP-2M/Lvkv9040C stat comparison and subsequent coping, but I can’t believe you’re like this.
I use the ZTL-11 a lot (it’s my most played vehicle), and that’s also an extremely tall vehicle just like the 2S38, with the same gun depression of -5. AND I CANNOT HULL DOWN. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE IN 99.9% OF CASES. That’s why I just rush.
This is extremely obvious and I’ve brought it up multiple times in-thread when talking about the 2S38s atrocious gun handling (and how it makes the unmanned turret nearly useless), but I can’t believe you can just say this and expect no one to call you out.
The HSTV-L also has an unmanned turret BTW (gunner and driver are in the hull, only the commander is in the turret), except it’s tiny and has -17 degrees of gun depression. I bring it up because multiple INSANE people have said that the 2S38 is just as good, if not better than the HSTV-L.
Which is an insane statement. The HSTV-L is a hundred times better, regardless of it being multi-purpose (the Swedish 9040Cs are as well, and so is the BMP-2M, and we know your stats in both…).
And the BRs currently seem pretty obvious. The 2S38 is a 10.0 vehicle. The Lvkv9040C and the BILL, however, are far better. I think there should be a “Swedish 10.0 IFVs to 11.0” thread, instead.
Please respond to my post with the math showing an average placement for the 2S38 of 10.7 going by stats alone.
Thus not accounting for functions it has that the 9040C or HSTV-L does not.
(
Also:
What??
)
It seems another Chinese civil war is about to start.
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The turret is not unmanned, it holds the commander. The only hope you got is if they use a sabot, and not HE (which many Russian players already know to do, and NATO players lack). 125 overpressure, which each and every one of you 2S38 10.0 defenders knows for a damn fact.
And yet, in spite of that, the only easy way to pop a 2S38 with an HE round is held by gasp the very nation it’s fighting in!
So maybe you and Alvis and the rest can go chew on that.
“The HSTV-L is a hundred times better”. Maybe for someone who knows how to avoid being seen and heard entirely, or maybe if you can spawncamp, but not if you’re trying to fight off a horde.
2 Likes
2S38 isn’t currently breaking balance.
That extra 50mm of penetration is not resulting in 2S38 having superior performance over Strf 9040C in matches.
So right now, 2S38 is performing identically to Strf 9040C.
All the players that have played both have that in common.
2S38 is half the speed of HSTVL with worse gun handling, and round, your post proves it should be 10.3, not 10.7.
2S38 goes 10.7, then HSTVL needs to go 11.7, Begleit to 9.7, and Strf 9040C to 10.3.
No, because then 2S38 would be 9.3 if it was compared to other SPAA.
1 Like
And the 2S38 has so many flaws, as seen here, and the Lvkv9040C has so many advantages as seen here and here.
Almost as if… they’re relatively balanced?
(Even though the Swedish 10.0 IFVs do perform better statistically, and I personally see them as being far superior to the 2S38).
It’s almost like you don’t understand that if you can mouth off advantages while disregarding the many weaknesses, so can someone else only focus on the disadvantages.
I want to start this with:
I wasn’t talking about the lvkv, i was comparing to the strf as both are light tanks in game (it is, at the moment, irrelevant that people argue that it should be an AA because right now it isn’t and that’s what i’m going by)
There is no “primarily” in the category gun handling, its an umbrella term that encompass everything around how the barrel moves.
The 9040C being “more than enough” does not take away the fact that the 2S38 is still almost twice as fast. it is literally faster at the slowest possible speed than the 9040C at its fastest.
regarding gun depression; yes its VERY important for this type of vehicle as its primary use is from behind hills.
But do you know how little 3 deg actually is?
Calculating on a 2m long barrel (just guessing here but it shows what i mean) that results in a 10cm difference in height at the tip. which at longer distances is remarkably more yes, but that matters little as all that means is that the 2S38 has to move to a better less steep hill and that problem no longer exists.
whether the depression or the rotational speed is more important ENTIRELY depend on the map that you are on. and the difference in depression is far less than the difference in traverse speed is.
anecdotal, not relevant to the discussion.
it having better thermals and access to commanders sights just objectively bakes it better in that area. it does not matter what you personally think about it, so i wont give my opinion either.
it does A LOT when you get shot at and have to go backwards behind a hill to repair or try to drive circles around a MBT in CQB. as shown in my calculations the speed alone sits at 10.4 comparatively (30% better acceleration).
(going by the strf here and not the lvkv:)
sure, you can, but having larger areas that are penetrable helps if either one of you are moving. not much, but it still helps.
- its ABSOLUTELY an advantage, in any situation where even parts of the hull is covered, having no crew in the turret does A LOT for survival. you can even hit the turret ring and not even injure the crew.
not only that but from the side the crew is WAY less spread out so if the shot misses the crew it misses them all, the other two you very often get at least one crew which slows it down.
so in the 2S38 its either survive or not, very little gray area, but the other two its often loose one crew and survive or don’t survive meaning even if you survive you are down one crew and easier to kill later on whilst the 2S38 completely resets its chanses.
i showed this as well.
Yes, this gives it survivability when not in cover, when in cover the 2S38 has the advantage so again it depends on the map, the strf9040C survives better in CQB but the 2S38 survives better on long range maps with hills.
skipping this as i compared to strf.
the strf9040C is 2.7m tall whilst the 2S38 is 2.4m tall as far as i know. making it shorter.
depression talked about above.
helps with AA.
when fighting MBT its more important if you can hurt them to begin with, it does not help to fire hundreds of rounds if they cant get through (analogy, the strf9040C can pierce but not as good).
so if i fire 10 shots and one make it through before the MBT turns and kills me or if i fire 3-4 and 2-3 gets through its far more likely that the MBT dies before firing back.
note that if either of them gets a surprise angle from the side then it wont really matter as both will kill the MBT anyway.
reverse speed matter way less than the acceleration does. in CQB or while hill peaking you don’t need the top speed to go back behind cover, you wont reach any meaningful speed over 20km/h in the strf9040C backwards before you are safe anyway.
the rest of that post i wont get into as i did the math on almost all of that and the 2S38 landed around 10.7 in BR comparatively.
and as a note, the strf does not have the 5 crew the lvkv has, it only has 3, same as the 2S38.
i don’t really see that many comparative flaws, it has flaws yes, but so does the others, often balanced out by something else. which is why i did the comparative math on straight numbers.
but the 2S38 has way more advantages than it does disadvantages compared to the strf.
i have no idea what you are referring to here. where can i see the statistics for individual vehicles?
3 Likes
You don’t understand what the word “primarily” means.
This huge text wall has already had every single “point” of yours addressed within the thread, so I won’t waste too much time.
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/ussr_2s38 - 2S38, average combined K/D of registered users = 1.2
https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/sw_lvkv_90c - Lvkv9040, average combined K/D of registered users = 1.75
The 2S38 being a premium really doesn’t mean anything, considering premiums such as the premium 2A4 and KVT have identical stats to their tech-tree counterparts. Most people, experienced or otherwise, play premiums. I personally have most of the Chinese high tier premiums.
The word’s meaning is irrelevant - you cannot simply focus on single aspect (depression) and throw out other ones out of the window. @Necronomica is very much correct here, gun handling is an umbrella term and it encompasses a number of characteristics that make up “gun handling”, those being:
- horizontal rotation speed
- elevation speed
- elevation angle
- depression angle
2S38 beats the CV9040C (that @Necronomica was comparing the 2S38 to i’m pretty sure) in 3 out of the 4 categories with ease.
The 2S38 being a premium really doesn’t mean anything, considering premiums such as the premium 2A4 and KVT have identical stats to their tech-tree counterparts.
Apples to oranges. Both 123 & KVT are ctrl + c/v of the 2 best AFVs at 10.3, with very little shortcomings apart from one or two here and there; they are set for success, and they are also very easy to play.
2S38 isn’t nearly as easy to play as those two, why? Simply put, it’s not an MBT, you have to work around 2S38s own shortcomings to make it work.
2S38, average combined K/D of registered users = 1.2
Lvkv9040, average combined K/D of registered users = 1.75
I’m not a patreon, so I’ve only got access to last month’s stats for those vehicles, but;
2S38 has better K/B
CV9040C has better K/D
It also seems like people who play the 2S38 rarely, if ever, make use of its anti-air capabilites, seeing as AK/B and AK/D are both significantly lower than CV9040Cs, which doesn’t even get IRST.
Unless you are a patreon and have got access to yearly stats for both, where did you get those K/D ratios for 2S38 & CV9040C?
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Stopped reading right there. What is so hard to grasp about the English language?
I dunno? Maybe ask your teacher. I also suggest growing up a bit, leaving that dogmatic aspect of yours behind, and actually reading what people write - you are simply being ignorant right now, I straight up explained why you cannot ignore other aspects, and your choice of action is to ignore that, lol.
That aside, i’m not sure if you took notice (probably not), but there is no “primary characteristic” when it comes to gun handling. If there was, all Chally 2 players I know of wouldn’t be crying about its gun handling… I mean, according to you, depression is the most important, no? So Leopard 2s horizontal & vertical speed superiority isn’t an advantage at all apparently, since its depression limit is lower than CR 2s.
3 Likes
Does someone pay you to come in and throw topics off track while continuously calling others dumb and acting as if your replies are the end-all be-all, you punk?
2 Likes
What is there to say when you clearly don’t understand what is being written?
To go lower than that is to engage in conversation with @Dinfire , and that would truly be a waste of time.
I’ll give you ONE explanation, and if this gets brought up again - I’ll just consider you more beast than man and no longer care about your points.
Here goes:
PRIMARILY does NOT mean that I’m “ignoring” other aspects. You clearly don’t understand what the word means, and you even bringing up “asking my teacher” and “growing up” is a joke.
When I say that gun depression is the primary aspect of gun handling - it means that it is the most important and holds the most weight in the context. You can have a 200deg/s horizontal/vertical traverse, but if you have -1 deg of gun depression - your gun handling sucks. If you would rather take that rather than ~20deg/s and -10 deg of gun depression, you’re just delusional.
The main reason for this is something that was already explained here and here.
Regardless of you being in a CQC environment or a long range environment - you are expected to react ahead of time and pre-aim on your targets. If you’re in CQC or at long range, you should:
- Know the map and aim towards expected chokepoints/enemy areas
- Listen carefully to engine sounds and keep your gun ready
Hence, traverse speeds aren’t that useful in most cases. If you’re caught off guard, you’re probably dead anyway. You’re meant to be ACTIVE in the engagement of the enemy.
Gun depression enhances that, by allowing better positioning. Hence, it is the most important aspect of gun handling. This is especially prominent in vehicles that ALREADY have good traverse speeds like the CV90s (and any 10.0 light tank), where the difference between 33 and 56 is barely noticeable.
Traverse speed is only really useful when engaging low flying aircraft, which is a very specific scenario. And when it comes to anti-air, the Lvkv9040C is easily better due to its radar that allows it to pre-aim regardless. (And obviously, spot the aircraft). Along with the 3 times higher RPM for the proxy (volume > 2m higher blast radius).
This has already been said once in-thread. This is the second time. The third time will not warrant an explanation again.
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You’re about as low a bottomfeeder as they come, so I suppose I’m glad to sling mud on your bad actions and call you for what you are, a stonewall who ignores his own points.
You say depression helps you get better positioning, while ignoring that the CQC aspect is primarily done IN CITIES with FLAT surfaces that do not allow for defilade to be properly used, anyway. A very common map design in War Thunder, especially. In those instances, gun traverse speed and reload rate matters.
Which, as it turns out, the 2S38 does markedly more well than many.
You do not warrant our attention further.
2 Likes
I do, you just choose to think I don’t… get off of your moral high ground kiddo.
PRIMARILY does NOT mean that I’m “ignoring” other aspects. You clearly don’t understand what the word means, and you even bringing up “asking my teacher” and “growing up” is a joke.
Do you though? Seeing as you used that word to describe an important, albeit no more relevant than other aspects of gun-handling, characteristic - making it out to be the most important out of 4 of them, when it very much isn’t.
When I say that gun depression is the primary aspect of gun handling - it means that it is the most important and holds the most weight in the context. You can have a 200deg/s horizontal/vertical
traverse, but if you have -1 deg of gun depression - your gun handling sucks. If you would rather take that rather than ~20deg/s and -10 deg of gun depression, you’re just delusional.
Oh cool, and you can have -30 degrees of gun depression, but if your turret turns slower than Maus can drive, can you actually utilize that advantage?
You will prolly go out of your way, bend the laws of physics, resort to every single mental gymnastic ever thought of, and say yes.
I’ll just consider you more beast than man and no longer care about your points.
Ad hominem, an excellent example of why people don’t take you seriously. By the way, you’re Chinese right?
Regardless of you being in a CQC environment or a long range environment - you are expected to react ahead of time and pre-aim on your targets. If you’re in CQC or at long range, you should
Idealistic view that is unwarranted.
Hence, it is the most important aspect of gun handling. This is especially prominent in vehicles that ALREADY have good traverse speeds like the CV90s (and any 10.0 light tank), where the difference between 33 and 56 is barely noticeable.
It’s the most important aspect only on hilly maps that allow you to take advantage of it. In city maps, it is as useless of a characteristic as they come.
where the difference between 33 and 56 is barely noticeable.
You’re delulu, the difference between 33°/s and 56°/s is massive, it’s a 42% difference in the turret’s rotation speed.
Yea, think I’ll just call it quits while i’m ahead, you’re not interested in what other people have to say, you’re here just to prove that “you’re right, and they aren’t”. Your condescending tone really sells out who you are, and what your goal is.
6 Likes
this was fun and giggles until it became shits and giggles cuz i need to go to the bathroom asap