2S38 to 11.0

Yeah, because my no thermals, no laser rangefinder, no laser warning, 7.x second reloading tank is very fair going up against that rolling cancer wagon.

By any measure, it is stupid the chieftain mk10 faces the 2s38.

That thing, along with the turms, effectively ruins an entire BR range. There are so goddam many of them a full uptier is practically guaranteed.

Just move the dammed thing up to 10.3. That moves it out of the way of the 9.0 tanks.

They won’t move it of course, they would remove its main selling point which is to bully far lower tier tanks.

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There is nothing alleged. Go watch my replays if you don’t believe me.

You mean my stats aren’t a perfect reflection of the vehicle’s capabilities because I use them at higher BRs and use them to scout/get SP before getting into CAS? You’re so close to getting there on your own, keep going.

Knowing how Sneed normally posts, I would question myself if I found myself in a position where they were agreeing with me.

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I think you will find that the chieftain mk10 has a LRF.

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Ah, you’re right of course, was thinking of the mk5.

Doesn’t invalidate anything else though.

Invalidate what?
The chieftain mk10 has no issues dealing with the 2S38 as long as you are playing it correctly.

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Nice!
i’m now going to use those numbers and put the 2S38 onto a BR axis where 9040C (10.0) is the zero line and HSTV-L (11.3) is the maximum.
for sake of brevity i’m going to show how i’m going about it once and then just show the results.
after the results i’m going to add all together and divide by number of tested factors to get an average (which should in theory give us the optimal BR for the 2S38 going only by the accounted for characteristics).

(Information about math here as well):

Acceleration (0-50km/h in seconds):

HSTV-L - 2S38 - 9040C
7-14-17

subtract the lowest number from all gets us:
0-7-10

turning it backwards (where needed) and converting the numbers to represent a normal axis progression (if the high number does not become 10 i convert by taking the 2S38 result divided by the HSTV-L result and multiplying the answer with 10 to get the axis placement for the 2S38)
0-3-10

putting BR 10.0 (9040C) as the zero and using a ten step divide to the BR 11.3 (HSTV-L) gives us 1.3/10=0.13 per step so multiplying the 2S38 axis placement by 0.13 gives us the BR it should be at going by every specific characteristic (per mathematical custom i’m not going to round to the actual BR numbers until last step, but i am rounding to the nearest hundredth to make it easier and look nicer). the 2S38 is in this instance 30% (3 steps) above the 9040C meaning 0.39 above giving it a rounded BR of 10.4 going by acceleration alone.
10.0 - 10.39 - 11.3

(for 0-60 calculated the same way turns into)
10.0 - 10.80 - 11.3

(average for category is 10.60)

so doing this for the rest of the numbers (with some corrections shown where needed):

APFSDS

munition mass:
10.0 - 10.31 - 11.3

flat penetration at 100m
10.0 - 10.92 - 11.3

60 degrees (not using your 60 to flat conversion as that will muddle up the calculation and instead using the values from in game at 100m which are: 155 - 128 - 97mm):
10.0 - 10.69 - 11.3

(Average for category: 10.64)

I will not use the APCBC as both 9040C and HSTV-L does not have one, instead adding the AA round and their characteristics which the HSTV-L does not have (making the lack thereof a disadvantage for self-defense against helicopters and jets).

Proxy round

i will use the average percentage of better round qualities as a multiplier for the 0.13 BR steps.
qualities used:
Speed of round, mass, mass of explosive (TNT equivalent), fragmentation penetration at 10m and trigger radius (feel free to comment on the way i did this).

Number above 10.0 for each:
0.13, 0.41, 1.07, 0.84, 0.87
Average: 0.66
BR result: 10.0 - 10.66 - 11.3
(i will argue it would place it a bit higher since the lack of proxy round does more than just that mathematical increase, but will use it for now)

Magnification/FOV:

here i will multiply the numbers of the FOV to get an area and use the zoom level difference.
Magnification:
10.0 - 10.39 - 11.3
FOV:
negligible area difference, will exclude going forward, but worth noting that 2S38 is slightly better than both.

Turret traverse:

(will use data from Wiki and RB - ACE crew for now) in deg/sek.
57 - 60 - 34.9
Here the 2S38 is better than both so lands outside the axis.
10.0 - 11.3 - 11.48

Fire rate, it gets progressively worse so calculated this backwards to see where it would land, (not sure here if this is correct, will exclude from final result but worth noting the difference):
HSTV-L - 2S38 - 9040C
10.0 - 11.0 - 11.3

Paragraph got long, about survival, no math

i will add that the 2S38 has no crew in its turret which gives it an edge as the tanks are built to peak over hills and only expose the turret as much as possible. this makes the 2S38 way more survivable in those situations, outside this they are probably very close in survival.
the only thing more i would add for survival is that the 2S38 has way more empty space inside (and thus has less things that create spalling), so if you don’t hit the right spot (kill/injure crew or ammo) it will have a way easier time to shoot back at what shot it and ultimately survive. if the HSTV-L gets hit you usually hit at least something to slow it down (one crew and perhaps injure another) because it has way more internal things that are spread out that can get hit. the 9040C does however have a spall liner to combat this.

Total:

i have done the average for each category separately as to not favour one category more than others so all acceleration have been averaged by themselves and then added to the total average division (so ammo pen and mass are added together into one average first and same with acceleration).
Adding all of the BR results together and dividing it by the number of categories measured we get:
11.48(turret traverse)+ 10.39(optics)+ 10.66(AA round)+ 10.64(ammo/pen)+ 10.61(acceleration)=53.78
divided by the 5 categories for an average of:
53.78/5=BR 10.76 (10.80 if fire rate is included)
this would result in an adjusted rounded BR of 10.7.

I am also curious about how you came to this conclusion:

When the average i get to for penetration and round mass is BR 10.64 (rounded to 10.7).
counting ONLY pen at 100m and 100m 60 degrees it averages out to (10.69+10.92)/2=10.81 (rounded to 10.7)
so how did you get to 10.3 going only by penetration?

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heh.

Do you really, seriously think a chieftain mk10 vs a 2s38 is fair?

Why isn’t it?
A 2S38 is going to have a very hard time killing a chieftain mk10 who is playing correctly and hull down whereas the mk10 has a significantly easier time killing the 2S38.
And that’s a full BR above it.

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Ok, lets spell it out for you,.

2s38 can spot a chieftain far, far before the chieftain can spot it. We are talking in bushes, adverse lighting conditions, everything but perfect conditions.

Once it spots it, the barrel or breech are easy targets for the s238. If the chieftain does manage to find the target and his gun isn’t out by some miracle, if he manages to see the damed thing under the constant autocannon fire, then he shoots then waits 7.x seconds for his next shot, meanwhile constantly getting hit and disabled.

Say the chieftain mk10 spots the 2s38 by some miracle first, the LWS will alert the 2s38 immediately so the chieftain better make dammed sure he kills it on the first shot, as he probably isn’t getting another one.

Sure, the chieftain mk10 can kill a 2s38, a sherman m4a2 can kill a 2s38 but that doesn’t make it a good match up.

I get the 9.0 to 10.3 is an area of large technological change and that’s fine, but what’s not fine is there being so many of the dammed things that they ruin an entire BR.

There is no possible way you can make the case that the 2s38, packed with LWR, 3rd generation thermals, fast firing high penning autocannon is in any way a fair matchup against the chieftain mk10.

Heh, report abusers are back lads. 🤣

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Whatever cope you want to tell yourself. I’m telling you that your extremely poor performance in all the chieftains is not down to the vehicle or the vehicles it faces, it is down to you.

You’re using the 2S38 as a scapegoat while you can’t even perform well in the 2S38 yourself.

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It is a “gotcha”.

You are pretending like the 2S38 is this extremely OP instawin vehicle that constantly sees downtiers to the chieftain mk10 and how it ruins the mk10.
And yet you perform basically the exact same in it compared to the mk10.

The only silly looking one here is you, since you can’t even do well in this allegedly horribly undertiered vehicle compared to the allegedly woe-begotten chieftain mk10.

Also stop crying about “muh personal attack!”, if the shoe fits you must wear it.

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Okay, if you woulnd’t take one of those or 2S25M, which is also 10.0.
Which higher BR light tank in the russian line up would you take to 12.7 ? Oh wait…

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“Here I go crying about “personal attacks” again!”

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There is nothing to read.
The 2S38 is fine and SwingfireOP has an unironic skill issue and is coping.
That’s the crux of it.
I don’t even mean it in an offensive way, he simply has a skill issue. Nothing more to it.

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Dude, you’re the one who started with that, you don’t get to act all indignant when you’re called out on it. I would expect better behaviour and manners from my 10 year old.

I’ll take your response as conceeding that you actually have no counter arguments and are conceeding the debate.

If you actually have a point or decide to actually engage in the conversation, then we can discuss it.

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bringing up my horrible stats means you’re trolling

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You tell yourself whatever cope you want, I said that already.

The chieftains aren’t for everyone.

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They need to learn that there are lies, dammed lies and statistics.

Here’s the thing. I’m ancient, wtih terrible eyesight, have to play with only one headphone on and I usually play when I’m incredibly stoned, it’s a miracle the stats aren’t worse, lolol.

Of course, none of that has any actual bearing on the discussion at hand, and zero arguments were actually put forward to refute my point, which I’ll take as a win :)

YES
bravoooo you figured it out that people with VALID opinions often have GOOD STATS
also another quirky niche fun fact, did you know that when gaijin is balancing something they SOMETIMES take in player performance and stats into account?

Yeah 90+% of my play time I’m also blitzed and/or drunk, and putting minimal effort/attention in to grind research. If they want to try and make inferences from my statistics based on that they are more than welcome to. You can lead a horse to water…

I’ve seen a certain forum individual, who was very fond of stat-shaming and challenging people to 1v1 sim duels, who admitted to using multiple accounts to practice when playing solo, and boosting their stats when playing in a squad. It’s one thing to be that obsessed with your player card, but repeating the WT grind multiple times just for stats is a genuine mental illness.

Often? You just said always?
Ever heard the saying, “a broken clock is right twice a day”? Someone can be the worst player in history, but that doesn’t intrinsically mean every opinion they hold is wrong, does it? There are certainly more people saying the 2S38 is OP than there are saying it’s balanced.

  1. You think GJN balances vehicles using player statistics from individual people, or averages over the entire player base, using all the other covariates they have access to to properly account for them in their model? (I’m fairly certain GJN aren’t doing this, but it’s nice to dream).

  2. Do you think that GJN requires their staff to have a certain KD ratio in a vehicle before they are allowed to suggest a nerf to it?

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