Yes but that wasn’t what my reply was about
I replied to your answer to his post.
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That’s sort of my issue with them though. They’re better in situations where the enemy isn’t aware of them and just making incedental maneuvers, but if the enemy sees them coming then they’re dodged just as easily as any other missile. I don’t want an SPAA that’s better against bad players, I want one that can clear the air regardless of the skill of the players in the air.
So I’ll take the SPAA with marginally worse missiles (That are just as effective in most cases), but better guns, actual anti-tank capability, a search RADAR, and a better chassis, over one with missiles that are a bit more punishing for against middlingly skilled players.
It’s actually 2m. Still an advantage, but again, Stingers work just fine for me against the same kinda planes that Mistrals work again. AKA the blind and deaf as they fly in nice straight lines towards the map. Anyone who attempts to evade the Mistral properly and isn’t already stalled out can do so easily, comparing them to dodging Strelas is a bit of a false equivalence.
APDS is nice, but the tiny capacity severely limits it. Sure, you get an ammo box now, but it’s tedious to set up and use it constantly to refresh your supplies. The guns are admittedly better than the Shilka, but I’d still say they’re noticably worse than the Gepards, in both anti tank and AA work.
My bad I thought it was bigger.
Damage is also a big problem with the Stinger. Su-25s can sometimes tank multiple Stingers and just keep flying.
I think it’s a fair comparison. The Strela is better but also much higher in BR. It has no search radar at all, no guns and no IRCCM. When the contrast mode doesn’t want to lock the IR mode can be flared very easily and even if they do lock you can outroll them too.
True but having any APDS and having none is a difference.
True but then again the 35mm are the best all round AA guns.
If people stopped using 35mm SPAAs to farm tanks most probably would go down.
The ZSU-23-4 isn’t able to chew up MBTs the way the Gepards are able to. The ZSU-37-2 can but you don’t see people doing it as much, probably because of the giant radar that you can’t put away is a giant H.E. me sign.
Additionally the ZSUs have very slow (and in my experience inaccurate) radar and have to switch between either track or scan, the marksman also has to do that but has a far faster search rate. and Gepard has 2 radars so it can track and scan at the same time. But I still think its their anti-tank abilities that are the main reason they are higher BR. Personally I think they should lose all but their air target belts and their 40 APDS for self defense and go down.
I assume the Stormer is 10.0 as it has an IRCCM missile like the Type 93 at 9.3, but also a gun and radar… and well some armour, at least compared to the 93.
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Fairly certain I can recall getting non-critical hits on Su-25s with Mistrals. It’s just the damage model being excessively tanky. Against other planes, I’ve found Stingers to be pretty consistent one shot kills, even if it only crits them at first.
Honestly, for Su-25s in particular, I tend to avoid missiles altogether if I have the option. It just paints a massive target on your head, and it’s painfully easy for them to just rocket you before you have a decent firing solution on it.
My preferred tactic is to wait for them to get close and commit to a run on something else, then light them up with guns when they’re too close to change targets. Then throw a missile at them as they retreat if the guns don’t kill them.
I rarely see people attempting to flare missiles these days. Most people seem to have learned that 90% of all IR SAMs have IRCCM, and it’s a safer bet to just outroll the missile and prioritize the thing that fired it at them.
Haven’t had much experience fighting with or against Strelas recently (Just unlocking the British/Indian one now), but I had assumed their much longer lock range and high G pull made them substantially more lethal. They should get a pseudo search feature, as IRL they had sensors all around the vehicle that passively searched for IR signatures and fed that data to the gunner. You can actually see them modeled in game, just nonfunctional. It just needs a Stormer HVM/Ozelot style search IR system.
Generally, yes, but it’s too limited to be used against air targets consistently and the platform is too poor to take it tank hunting.
My point is that the SIDAM is overall better than the Shilka M4, but not universally (I’ll take a poor search RADAR over none any day of the week), and not to such an extent that I think the SIDAM should be a higher BR.
Yes, and that’s the crux of my argument as to why it doesn’t belong at the same BR as the Gepard. The Gepard combines decent AA potential with a solid secondary role as a tank hunter when required.
The SIDAM is marginally better in one aspect of AA work (At the cost of worse guns, worse tracking and no search RADAR), and has effectively no potential for tank hunting.
It has pseudo irccm afaik
You mean the boxes? Aren’t they actually RWR sensors?
You can’t. It has no SAPHE, is very very inaccurate and has no gun depression at all meaning you can’t shoot their hull.
I didn’t get that lucky then
Well thats just standard SPAA experience. A mediocre CAS pilot will win against any SPAA.
Only works if the map is flat. If they have cover won’t hit them.
Weird. Every they notice mine they spam flares.
Against high flying planes and recon drones yes they’re very strong. You can’t do anything against helis or strike drones >4km away. Heli rushers up close are problematic too.
The radar dish doesn’t even indicate target similar to other track radars. They added this feature to the dev server two weeks ago but removed it again when the update went live.
Do you have more info on this? Would be great if you could post it as bug report.
I think the main reason it’s at 9.7 is that the French Mistral car is 9.3. The French one is basically a bigger Ocelot with better missiles.
I agree but I think the Gepard is fine where it is. The others are overtiered.
Does it have seeker shrinking? If they flare early or maneuver while flaring the missile still loses track of the aircraft. The optical tracking can also easily be avoided by not flying high.
+unlike most other AAs it’s not 50 cal resistant.
0,5 is pretty good up close but can still be flared if you pay attention to the battlefield.
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Guess that explains why I don’t see people using it as a TD then. It was added after I already got through that part of the tree so I haven’t played it that much, I kind of just mentioned it as an after thought to get ahead of the “But the ZSU-37 has AP rounds with more pen then the Gepards AP rounds” argument.
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I’ll admit, I don’t have a ton of experience with Stingers. Most of it’s on the Stormer AD recently, though I have a lot of experience with the Type 93’s missiles which are very similar in performance (albiet slightly more filler).
But when I used them, any target I hit would either die outright, be crit enough to die on it’s own, damaged enough to not be able to outpull a second one, or an Su-25. Other missiles (like the Mistral) tend towards the higher damage options (apart from against Su-25s), but only marginally.
It’s why I put a focus on the Gepard’s guns so much. A MANPAD can be outpulled no matter how the SPAA fired it. 35mm HE with decent aim is much harder to dodge.
Doesn’t help against standoff range munitions, but there’s fortunately relatively few of them at the tier.
Yeah, it’s map dependant. Just a best case scenario thing. The most important part, which I forgot to mention, relocate after they dip below the horizon. Because they’re going to be looking for you when they pop back up. Something that’s very easy for a Gepard, but much harder for the SIDAM/Shilka.
Personal experience against personal experience. Can’t say which is more common, I can only comment on my experience.
I had somewhat misremembered, they’re passive radar sensors. Effectively ground RWR. Taken from here.
As far as I know, it’s already been bug reported. Dunno why it hasn’t been implemented yet.
Even there, I can think of times I’d prefer to have the SANTAL over the SIDAM 25. It’s got a search RADAR, primarily. It’s also a lot faster, meaning you can position in sneaky areas where the casual player won’t be looking for smoke trails. You also get scouting, which combined with the previous point I find far more useful than the inconsistent tank hunting ability of the SIDAM’s guns.
The SIDAM probably still has the edge, but I think that’s more down to how overvalued these MANPAD only SAMs are. As already discussed, if you can see the missiles coming you get to completely trivialize them. I’d suggest lowering them, but that doesn’t really solve the problem.
Fair.
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I strongly disagree I’ve seen the singers do so crazy things over iglas… and mistrals on the Sidam 25?? Absolutely terrible.
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The Igla refuses to lock onto stuff unless they’re in range of your guns too lol… its only useful if they’ve flown past you…
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Guns can arguably be dodged even easier.
???
The ATGM heli spam starts at 8.3 and doesn’t end until top tier.
They can’t be locked and if they don’t fly perfectly straight your AA guns will be useless too.
Also one of the big problems the Strela or Chaparral have. A search radar is incredible important.
AA in general is overtiered massively. Look the BR changes. AA keeps getting uptiered, CAS gets downtiered.
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Not really, they are pretty equal. Shilka has a limited search radar while the Machbet has thermals to help it spot things.
Also the guns are pretty equal, both have rheir strengths and weaknesses having used both guns.
no on both things, limited search radar is better than no search radar. and the guns on the shilka are just better, stingers are better tho
They can be at range, but not once they close in for a strike. If they’re using CCIP (as most of the popular CAS options at the tier do), they have to fly in close proximity to what they’re striking, and that means a fairly easy and consistent gun solution if you’ve positioned well.
Against an A-4E or something else with guided ordinance, you’re out of luck. But you’re also out of luck with missiles, so eh.
I don’t quite consider them standoff since most of the early ones are forced to close to a distance that even MANPADs can lock them (outside of cloudy/snowy maps, admittedly). And because of the lack of optics, they can’t use the same ground hugging techniques that higher tier ones can pull off to make them impossible to lock with contrast seekers.
At the tier, it’s only the Soviet Hinds with their Sturms that completely outrange SPAA. Of course, god help you if you get uptiered into Hellfires, but at that point you just have to hope one of your top tier players brought a RADAR SAM to counter them.
Agreed. It’s one of my biggest problems with a lot of SAMs at the bracket.
A close second is vehicles with a search RADAR but only IRST for tracking, which sounds good for stealth purposes but result in you being unable to quickly lock a target once it’s detected. You have to manually find them along an entire bearing, all the while they’re free to line up a shot against you.
I agree generally. It’s baffling that they added the BR split to move a bunch of plane BRs up, but then seem content to let them sit there with minimal updates. Meanwhile, helicopters went entirely untouched.
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And you base that on what experience with the shilka?
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personally in never had it, but my brother does on multiple nations and we’ve played together quite a bit. m168 aint it.