Yugoslavia MUST BE an independent tech tree, IF added

[TheDancingSlav]

I would first like to say that this is not a fact or information-based post, it is a rant, in an attempt to summarize what others may be potentially feeling about the topic.
With the rumors circulating around Yugoslavia being added in one of the upcoming updates, I would like to press hard on the topic of how Yugoslavia should be implemented.
I am not from any of the ex-Yugoslav countries. I have no national sympathy or pride in Yugoslavia or any of it’s following nations, but I take great interest in the ideas that the nation had over it’s vehicles.
War thunder had a bad impression with the addition of more trees after Israel, understandably due to the idea that copy-pasting vehicles does not constitute the addition of a new tree. Personally, I am opposed to the idea that copy paste vehicles are bad for the game, but that is not what I am here to discuss.
The impression that many have on the addition of Yugoslavia is that it is simply a nation with a multitude of copy paste vehicles from the west and the east. I disagree. Yugoslavia was imported a multitude of vehicles from foreign countries, yes, but the modifications made to those vehicles are so unique and so interesting that you cannot constitute these vehicles as ‘copy-paste’. These are not modifications like adding a .50 cal or swapping a gun (Israel). I would like to put forward the tech trees proposed on PikPikker:
https://pikpikker.neocities.org/yug_wt
and in the forum by Mahihew:

Yugoslav Ground Tech Tree (Including Bosnia, Croatia, N. Macedonia, Serbia and Slovenia!)

poll Yugoslav Ground Forces [image] This post is made by the users Mahiwew, Sire_MacHattansc, thanosaekk and YugoSlav_ Greetings! Today we will be presenting a popular pick for many people as to what they would like to see as a new nation in War Thunder; Yugoslavia! This post will be going over the Yugoslav ground forces, but also some other nations that originated from it. Not all vehicle details are currently present, but these will be edited into the post later down the line. Some i…

Many of the vehicles on this list are familiar, but their modifications are wildly distinct. Far more distinct and numerous than what can be crammed into a sub-tree.
Sub tech trees are/should be used for nations who do not possess the number or uniqueness in vehicles to constitute a full tree. Such examples would be like Korea, Switzerland, or Romania- which while respectfully possess unique vehicles, are far suited to be comfortably inserted into other larger trees like Japan, Germany, etc.
We have seen similar things done with Hungary, Finland, and South Africa, who fulfill these characteristics for being inserted into other trees.
Yugoslavia does not fulfill these characteristics, for the very fact that its designs and manufacturing vary greatly and numerically.
Not only this, but It cannot be stressed enough of how massive an opportunity of an independent Yugoslav tech tree would be providing for minor tech trees and nations, particularly axis nations- rather than having to worry about how to implement such nations and vehicles into other trees, they can be conglomerated or incorporated into a major diverse tree like Yugoslavia. If Gaijin does so, this would clear up a whole host of the community who constantly request these nations to be added, knocking multiple birds out with one stone. Romania, Poland, Czechoslovka (If not implemented as a sub tree to USSR), Ukraine (maybe), Visegrad 4, etc. Yugoslavia is viewed by many as an underdog nation, especially by it’s ex-nationals, if you were creative about it, you could use it as a platform for under-dog vehicles like technicals and concepts from other underdog places namely the middle east (but this Idea I will admit is controversial).

We must also discuss incentives. Gaijin has to get something in return, and Yugoslavia would be providing massive incentives for a diverse array of premiums. There are a multitude of vehicles that could potentially be added as premiums, both indiginous and imports. Sub-tech trees are typically restricted in the numerity of premiums that can be added to their host trees, for the obvious fact that they are part of a larger tree and therefore the premiums will be dominated by the host country.
An independent Yugoslavia would allow for a larger pool of premiums for players to choose from, for not only including Yugoslav vehicles, but also potentially other nation’s vehicles. By adding Yugoslavia to another tech tree, you throw away these opportunities for the sales of premiums, in order to not end up overwhelming the host-tree’s indiginous premiums. This is a conflict that can be completely avoided with independence.

Trade offs and negatives to an independent Yugoslavia:
Fortunately, Yugoslavia has a relatively dished out low-tier comapred to Israel, so theres no need for a mid-tier startup. However, there are other negatives to adding an independent Yugoslavia. The most obvious is the fact that depriving Yugoslavia of a tree like the Soviets or other (which?) would be negative for a host tree, since said tree would not be receiving the benefits of the sub-tree. However, this is mitigated by the fact that there is still a whole host of nations that perfectly fit the qualifications to be sub-trees. Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Korea, Ukraine, Indonesia, etc.
Yugoslavia has amounted a number of indiginous aircraft, but they have also imported a multitude of other aircraft. If there is a case to be made to have Yugoslavia as a sub-tree, the air tree admitedly seems more akin to fitting the characteristics of one. But, with research, these gaps could potentially be filled as new aircraft are discovered with time that also fits Gaijin’s qualifications for being added. But again, I reiterate, these are gaps that could be filled by other minor nations, a flexibility provided mostly by independence.

If Yugoslavia’s vehicles do not meet the numerical qualifications to become independent as a tree, a combined nation tree such as with Poland could make up for that fact.

TLDR: Yugoslavia added as an independent tree would be like adding a door to a game, a door that can open in many directions for minor trees that wouldn’t be represented easily otherwise. Adding Yugoslavia as a sub-tree would be like taking that door and turning it into a dog-door that only Yugoslavia itself would fit through.

• TheDancingSlav

[Josephs_Piano]

No it doesn’t.

[Mahiwew]

Absolutely agree!
The presented tree by Pikpikker is severely dated though and I’d like to instead put forth a post made be a few people, including me.

Glad to see someone agreeing!

Yugoslav Ground Tech Tree (Including Bosnia, Croatia, N. Macedonia, Serbia and Slovenia!)

poll Yugoslav Ground Forces [image] This post is made by the users Mahiwew, Sire_MacHattansc, thanosaekk and YugoSlav_ Greetings! Today we will be presenting a popular pick for many people as to what they would like to see as a new nation in War Thunder; Yugoslavia! This post will be going over the Yugoslav ground forces, but also some other nations that originated from it. Not all vehicle details are currently present, but these will be edited into the post later down the line. Some i…

@Josephs_Piano

No it doesn’t.

95% positive you didn’t even read what was being said xd

[CRO_SkyGuard]

The flag found in the files is a WW2 era one, we will either see it used for a random premium/event/battle pass vehicle or used for a low BR early acces tank to a Yugoslav ground tree.

There was also a slovenian M-55S found in the files which would fit the high BR early acces vehicle, and also serb voicelines were in the files.

[Goblin_Slayer48]

lol i was gonna comment that he should use ur TT for presentation of potential yugo independent tree

[Mahiwew]

@CRO_SkyGuard

There was also a slovenian M-55S found in the files which would fit the high BR early acces vehicle, and also serb voicelines were in the files.

Serbian voice lines are present in the game if you set your game to Serbian and disable localized languages per country if I’m not mistaken, but they could easily be ported over to Yugo vehicles too.

[TheDancingSlav]

It’s done!
I’ve added it to the text.
Thanks for this, I have not yet seen it before now, but it looks interesting, good work!

[Bringer_Of_War]

I mean… the top tier is nothing but russia

[TheDancingSlav]

Not necessarily. The tanks are designed off of Russian vehicles, but they are modified distinctly. If they are copy paste, as I said in the article, I’ve yet to see how this is a viable problem.
If a vehicle is unreasonably OP, it should be nerfed, which nations use it don’t matter.

[Aegis270]

@TheDancingSlav

The impression that many have on the addition of Yugoslavia is that it is simply a nation with a multitude of copy paste vehicles from the west and the east. I disagree.

And yet both of the lines you posted have copious amounts of copy paste, especially at the low tiers. Tiers 1-3 are all around 50% copy paste, and even in the high tiers there are still instances, like the T-55A.

You know what would solve this problem? Having a combined Eastern European line. Poland and Czechoslovakia both produced many early tiered vehicles that would fill these gaps easily. There would be some unavoidable copy paste through the WW2 years, but including the few prototype vehicles from Romania, Yugoslavia and other Axis minors would reduce the amount needed substantially. Ideally Hungary would have been included to help this further, but Gaijin decided Italy needs them, for some reason.

Effectively, all limiting the line to Yugoslavia does is limit the available vehicles to pull from, which means you need to scrape every possible vehicle, no matter how much of a copy paste it is, in order to fulfil lineups. Just compare those two trees to a combined tree. Notice how much less copy paste there is. And appreciate how much more room for expansion it has over a single nation limited tree.

@TheDancingSlav

These are not modifications like adding a .50 cal or swapping a gun (Israel).

I also got a kick out of this as the M-634 is literally just a Sherman with a more powerful engine. Even the famous SO-122 is just a Sherman with a better engine and a different gun.

[Mahiwew]

@Bringer_Of_War

I mean… the top tier is nothing but russia

The M-84s are more unique than you’d think and would play quite distinctly when compared to USSR T-72 variants.
M-84A would, for example, have weaker armor bit would be much more mobile than T-72B, due to its 1000hp engine. These vehicles also were upgraded with local FCS systems (including thermals), would receive either western or domestic ERA and weapons systems.
And that’s looking at M-84s only and ignoring the fact that stuff like the BVP M-80 and Lazar families are being ignored, despite being completely unique to (ex-) Yugoslavia.

@Aegis270

And yet both of the lines you posted have copious amounts of copy paste, especially at the low tiers. Tiers 1-3 are all around 50% copy paste, and even in the high tiers there are still instances, like the T-55A.

Sure, the earlier tiers are weaker than many countries, but I’d say that they’re worth adding anyways mainly due to the prolific early Yugoslav aviation. It’s quite little known, but Yugoslavia did have its own fighters and bombers that were locally designed as well as foreign planes that were modified into something of their own. I’d say that (relatively) weak early tiers wouldn’t really hinder the tree much, especially given the good state of the tree later down the line.

@Aegis270

You know what would solve this problem? Having a combined Eastern European line. Poland and Czechoslovakia both produced many early tiered vehicles that would fill these gaps easily. There would be some unavoidable copy paste through the WW2 years, but including the few prototype vehicles from Romania, Yugoslavia and other Axis minors would reduce the amount needed substantially. Ideally Hungary would have been included to help this further, but Gaijin decided Italy needs them, for some reason.

I see no reason for this.
Yugoslavia would have a decent air tree that is only slightly worse than the independent Swedish one (which could be fixed with a sub-tree, which Gaijin is no stranger to) and would have more growth potential in ground that Japan, Italy and Israel with over 200 available vehicles, mostly modified or locally designed.
Nevermind the idea that Yugoslavia really wouldn’t fit in with the rest of Eastern Europe. While combining Czechoslovakia and Poland would make quite some sense, adding Yugoslavia wouldn’t, due to their unique history in the cold war. I see no reason why it’d have to share a tree with Lithuania or Ukraine either.
Combined nation trees are a cool idea if kept to only a few members that work well together and make sense, such as Benelux or V4, but the Eastern European tree doesn’t hold up if you ask me. Besides, it’s like lumping Western Europe together despite there being several countries that can work separately too.

@Aegis270

Effectively, all limiting the line to Yugoslavia does is limit the available vehicles to pull from, which means you need to scrape every possible vehicle, no matter how much of a copy paste it is, in order to fulfil lineups. Just compare those two trees to a combined tree. Notice how much less copy paste there is. And appreciate how much more room for expansion it has over a single nation limited tree.

Again, no, but that’s something I commented on prior.
I recommend checking out the current Yugo ground tree proposal on this forums and have a look at both trees as well as the large unused vehicles list (which is still receiving updates that I am currently working on).

@Aegis270

I also got a kick out of this as the M-634 is literally just a Sherman with a more powerful engine. Even the famous SO-122 is just a Sherman with a better engine and a different gun.

You could play down the fun of anything like that.
“The M1A2 is just an M1 with a bigger cannon and some more armor”.
“T-34-85 is just a T-34 with a new turret”.
Sure, one could argue that’s the case, but they still would play fundamentally different, especially in the SO-122s case. And Yugoslavia has enough such cases, as well as the largely ignoring domestic production that could definitely see it function independently in a healthier way than a bunch of nations we already have in the game.

[Aegis270]

@Mahiwew

Sure, the earlier tiers are weaker than many countries, but I’d say that they’re worth adding anyways mainly due to the prolific early Yugoslav aviation. It’s quite little known, but Yugoslavia did have its own fighters and bombers that were locally designed as well as foreign planes that were modified into something of their own. I’d say that (relatively) weak early tiers wouldn’t really hinder the tree much, especially given the good state of the tree later down the line.

Early tier Yugo aircraft might be decent, but once it gets into the mid-late Cold War, they have practically nothing. Albiet this is the fate of almost all central/eastern European countries, as none of them produced much more than light ground attack aircraft and trainers. Still, this is just another argument in favor of a combined tree, this means you can have all of these various indigenous designs concentrated in one tree, rather than split between several with the exact same Soviet copy paste high tiers for each tree.

@Mahiwew

I see no reason for this.
Yugoslavia would have a decent air tree that is only slightly worse than the independent Swedish one (which could be fixed with a sub-tree, which Gaijin is no stranger to) and would have more growth potential in ground that Japan, Italy and Israel with over 200 available vehicles, mostly modified or locally designed.
Nevermind the idea that Yugoslavia really wouldn’t fit in with the rest of Eastern Europe. While combining Czechoslovakia and Poland would make quite some sense, adding Yugoslavia wouldn’t, due to their unique history in the cold war. I see no reason why it’d have to share a tree with Lithuania or Ukraine either.
Combined nation trees are a cool idea if kept to only a few members that work well together and make sense, such as Benelux or V4, but the Eastern European tree doesn’t hold up if you ask me. Besides, it’s like lumping Western Europe together despite there being several countries that can work separately too.

See above. And while the Swedish Air tree is certainly patchy, at once they leave WW2 they have enough indigenous designs to form the backbone of the line, with only some copy paste (And unnessesary at that).

I’ll grant that politically it would be less cohesive than other common suggestions, like the Commonwealth. But I argue for practicality. Rather than split the vehicles into two lines with copy paste, it would make far more sense from a gameplay perspective to put them all into one line where you can limit the copy paste and give yourself much more room for expansion. You won’t struggle nearly as hard trying to build lineups, you won’t have interesting vehicles orphaned at BRs where nothing else fits, you have an near endless number of premiums, event and gift vehicles without depriving the line of important vehicles.

@Mahiwew

Again, no, but that’s something I commented on prior.
I recommend checking out the current Yugo ground tree proposal on this forums and have a look at both trees as well as the large unused vehicles list (which is still receiving updates that I am currently working on).

I have looked. They’re OK. The large one you posted is the best I’ve seen, but even that has too much copy paste when there’s an easy alternative. Through the early to mid tiers, it’s effectively just the Chinese tech tree again, except with a couple of German vehicles thrown in and a few actual Yugo vehicles.

And I have looked at the unused vehicle list. There are options for light and SPGs, but effectively all of the medium options are an already included vehicle with a marginal upgrade that may or may not make any difference in game. Regardless, the issue with the vast majority of all of these, as stated by you, is redundancy. They’re meaningless additions that add no variety or new features to the line. They’d be padding, nothing else. The last thing this line needs for gameplay variety is more M-84s.

[Bonrath]

Good rant IMO, a very decent post.
Amongst other things, there has been some reasonably high quality models of the IAR-93/J-22 popping up, so rejoice for a soon tm Romanian ( Italian subtree) and Yugo jet.

[Mahiwew]

@Aegis270

Early tier Yugo aircraft might be decent, but once it gets into the mid-late Cold War, they have practically nothing. Albiet this is the fate of almost all central/eastern European countries, as none of them produced much more than light ground attack aircraft and trainers. Still, this is just another argument in favor of a combined tree, this means you can have all of these various indigenous designs concentrated in one tree, rather than split between several with the exact same Soviet copy paste high tiers for each tree.

I’m sorry but this is a very strange way of looking at things.
Yugoslavia sure had light attackers and trainers, but also several prototypes of jet fighters of varying performances.
Ikarus 451 family, Ikarus 452M, J-21 family, G-2/3/4 families and the J-22 family, they have something of their own at any tier. And at a stretch you could even consider the Novi Avion, but that would be a very far stretch and not representative of Gaijins policy.

Sure, for the J-21, G-2, G-3 and G-4 you could argue that they are light attackers and trainers, but they are very varied in performance.
From some machine guns and a few rockets to 23mm autocannons, R-60s and Mavericks. These aircraft would span from early jet and arguably prop tier up to the later BRs in this game. Especially with the J-22 still being modernized I say the air is well balanced for now and still relatively future proof due to the additions of Rafale to the Croatian inventory.

@Aegis270

I’ll grant that politically it would be less cohesive than other common suggestions, like the Commonwealth. But I argue for practicality. Rather than split the vehicles into two lines with copy paste, it would make far more sense from a gameplay perspective to put them all into one line where you can limit the copy paste and give yourself much more room for expansion. You won’t struggle nearly as hard trying to build lineups, you won’t have interesting vehicles orphaned at BRs where nothing else fits, you have an near endless number of premiums, event and gift vehicles without depriving the line of important vehicles.

Even practically it doesn’t make so much sense if you ask me.
If one wished to play their beloved Poland or Ukraine or whatever other example they would have to grind through a bunch of countries they may not wish to interact with. Why would one have to grind through several Lazar vehicles to get to their XXYY Rosomak variant, only to not even be supported by a full Polish lineup if that is the country you are interested in and wish to play?
It makes it unrewarding if you wish a “national authenticity” of sorts, whether it contains copy paste or not.

And in the Yugoslav case lineups definitely wouldn’t be an issue.
If you were to look at the big tree, you’d see I made sure to include at least three vehicles per BR for the most part (and no, BRs weren’t skewed in order to fit said lineups). This is excluding many other vehicles that are left in the unused vehicles list or that aren’t yet present there.
Room for expansion, especially on the ground side of things, is a non-issue for Yugoslavia.

As for the copy/paste, it’s present but far from as bad as in other places.
Even still, it doesn’t have to be an issue beyond rank IV.
Yugoslavia has its own variant on practically everything and if a copy/paste vehicle is presented there it’s mostly for historical importance.
Yet beyond that, I think copy paste is a part of Gaijins strategy for adding new (sub-) trees. For me this is especially evident with the additions of Finland and Hungary. Add in a “prototype” or skeletal line/tree with a bunch of copy/paste and then keep the interesting stuff for future additions. We’ve seen this happen with Finland, where they initially only received five unique vehicles out of tens of additions, yet consistently after the fact Finland has received unique stuff only.

Even if all this isn’t to liking, then there is always the option of giving Yugoslavia it’s own sub-tree, since it most likely wouldn’t be added with five lines anyways and would have space for further support (though there unfortunately isn’t any real country that fits).

@Aegis270

I have looked. They’re OK. The large one you posted is the best I’ve seen, but even that has too much copy paste when there’s an easy alternative. Through the early to mid tiers, it’s effectively just the Chinese tech tree again, except with a couple of German vehicles thrown in and a few actual Yugo vehicles.

Again, regarding the low tiers, it’s relatively poor, but does include some of the most fun creations as well as it would allow for the air. To start at a good point.
Air is the first tree to get added for every tree still and considering how good the Yugo low tier is it would likely happen to be added and thus bring low tier ground into the fray as well. It is what it is, but arguably better than what China has to offer and is comparable to what Israel could have if Gaijin expanded them to lower tiers.

@Aegis270

And I have looked at the unused vehicle list. There are options for light and SPGs, but effectively all of the medium options are an already included vehicle with a marginal upgrade that may or may not make any difference in game. Regardless, the issue with the vast majority of all of these, as stated by you, is redundancy. They’re meaningless additions that add no variety or new features to the line. They’d be padding, nothing else. The last thing this line needs for gameplay variety is more M-84s.

I really don’t understand this point.
Redundancy in vehicle options is a good thing!
It allows Gaijin to pick and choose between these options. For all we know we could miss out on M-84A4 and receive M-84M instead, which just shows that there is room for expansion.
You’ve got to remember that Gaijin wouldn’t add Yugoslavia at the size I presented it at, maybe not even at the size of Thanosaekks realistic tree, the redundancy of certain vehicles is just a pool of vehicles to choose from, thus a good thing. It would likely take over 10 years to get Yugoslavia to a large size that still wouldn’t be as large as what I presented. This longevity and choice of (unique) vehicles is the absolute key to what makes a good tree!
So despite the abundance of M-84 variants that don’t have a point in working together, it’s still a positive feature of this nation.
The same could be said for lower tiers being copy paste: there is no reason to believe it would be so stuffed with copy paste from the very beginning. They could just as easily add the unique stuff at low tier early on and then continue to expand the tree in interesting ways at higher tiers, which seems to be Gaijins strategy now anyways.

[TheDancingSlav]

I have actually openly stated towards the bottom of my post that Yugoslavia should be a tree to combine with other nations to make up for it’s lack of indiginous design where present. I have suggested a combination of Poland with Yugoslavia if an independent tree is not possible, but with consideration, I actually think Romania would be better. Poland and Czech tech tree would be a good combination, but I think the Czechs are going to be implemented as a Russian sub tree, considering that czechoslovak vehicles are already being inserted into the Russian tree.

But TLDR: No, Yugoslavia should not be limited to Yugoslavia, I agree. It should be used as an opportunity to implement other nations who otherwise would not possess indepedent trees.

However, that doesn’t mean we can’t have some copy paste vehicles. Copy paste vehicles aren’t negative, they are value-neutral. They aren’t good or bad. They just fill lineups. Copy paste vehicles are negative when the tanks are OP and thus increasing the number of them make it annoying to be fought. If this is a problem, it should be seen to that the vehicles become less OP, rather than limiting their amount.

[TheDancingSlav]

How romania is implemented will be interesting.
I’m a supporter of Romania being a dedicated sub tree within a Yugoslavia main tree.
Czech and Poland could also share their own combined tree, OR, Czechoslovak vehicles are implemented in the USSR tree, and Poland gets their vehicles represented in a Yugoslav tree, or fully independent polish Tree.

[Motherhen357]

@CRO_SkyGuard

The flag found in the files is a WW2 era one, we will either see it used for a random premium/event/battle pass vehicle or used for a low BR early acces tank to a Yugoslav ground tree.

There was also a slovenian M-55S found in the files which would fit the high BR early acces vehicle, and also serb voicelines were in the files.

I’ve not really understood the fascination w/ this flag lately, it 's been ingame for years. It might be notable that it 's been converted to the new statcard style, but so have nearly a dozen flags of other nations which are not currently represented in WT.

Certainly it doesn’t tell us much abt how Yugoslavia is planned to be implemented that we didn’t know before, the only thing associated w/ this that we’ve seen is their unimplemented Hawker Fury Mk.1:

Which was removed from the files following the introduction of UHD textures.

Abt Serbia, they too have a statcard flag in the files

Which, being of similar age to the Yugoslav one, may prove them to be completely unrelated regarding intended method of implementation.

[Motherhen357]

@Bonrath

I mean, Romanian subtree should fall under Italy, they already have plenty Romanian vics.

In fact, it was for Romanian inclusion that the policy which has now provided researchable Hungarian ground vehicles and helicopters to the ITA techtree came to be:

( [Development] I.A.R. 81-C: Supporting the Axis - News - War Thunder )

Given the leaked BMP-23 and the presence of the Bulgarian flag in the files, it seems likely that nation will also find representation there.

[Ub3rshadow]

I’d like to see subtrees get their own matchmaker. For example in Air Sim, if you fly top tier you’re almost certainly flying with and against F-16s, and it gets confusing fast both on IFF, RWR and visually IDing targets. It gets stale too in random battles. If you could have Taiwanese vehicles fighting under the Taiwanese flag on a more Western-aligned team fighting against Chinese vehicles on a Rus-China-aligned team, that’d be really cool.

That way you get to keep subtrees instead of making a ton of new nations and cluttering everything, while getting a better matchmaker.