YaK-9K: Remove it's APHE belt or move it up to 5.7 in GRB

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
1204

Or instead, why not apply the same “no recoil for the sake of gameplay” to all other large-caliber cannons?

Most other platforms have lots of downsides to contend with - the current recoil setting on most other large-caliber guns acts as the final nail in those planes’ coffins.

Who in their right mind actually uses an Hs-129B-3, Ki-109, P.108A, XA-38, PBJ-1H, Tempest Vickers P, Bf-110G-2, IL-2-37, Me-410A-1/U4 or B-2/U4, or any other similar plane, let alone manages to learn to use it truly well? If we’re talking big-cannon fighters, P-39s and P-63s are about the closest to Yak-9s in terms of handling.

The lack of recoil is what makes the Yak-9K, Yak-9UT, TIS MA, Su-8, and Tu-1 actually somewhat fun to play as big-cannon CAS.

Bomb and rocket CAS would still be far superior to all recoilless big-cannon options due to the lower opportunity cost - you can jettison ordinance if you need to kill planes but usually cannot do the same with big guns (and those big guns’ AP rounds are usually not effective vs planes anyway, this is true even for Yak 45mm guns unless you happen to directly hit pilot/engine/wing spar).

I see big-gun recoil on aircraft in the same way as unreliable engines, weak transmissions, faulty shells, and similar features are - technically realistic, but not fun for gameplay under any circumstance.

How would it feel as a tank to have gun recoil have a significant chance of screwing up ambushes on opponents even after you patiently did everything right? For me, that would be “the last straw” breaking any chance I would have left to truly enjoy the vehicle in question. We see something very similar in Naval with Coastal Fleet - excessively choppy seas render all but point-blank shots a total crapshoot. Surprise, surprise - coastal fleet remains unpopular partly for this “anti-skill” reason, as no amount of playing skill can fully compensate for guns spraying wildly all over the place in the neverending choppy waves. And obviously, we can’t do point-blank shots with planes on tanks without guaranteed crashing.

Regardless of vehicle class or game mode, I frankly think every single vehicle deserves to be practically playable and fun to use when doing so, not just exist for the sake of existing. If that means some technically unrealistic aspects for the sake of playability, so be it.

If we want counters to Yak-9s, and frankly any other propeller-driven CAS, why is nobody talking much about giving non-radar SPAAG (and possibly SPHs/Heavy Flak vehicles too) some sort of short-range lead marker? We see that once radar AA become commonplace, the average player goes from being next to worthless using SPAAG to swatting down CAS on a semi-regular basis. Thus, wouldn’t giving SPAAGs in lower ranks a shorter-range equivalent of that based on crew skills we already have solve not just Yaks, but complaints about damn near ALL propeller CAS regardless of its weapon choices?

It just seems ridiculous to me to focus so much on this one damn plane, instead of the larger environment around it.

1 Like
1205

Meaning recoil is too linear. It only goes on one axis, while it should go on all 3 like it goes for ground vehicles.

3 Likes
1206

Doesn’t it already do that that on my beloved duckie???

1207

I do… :/
Cannon birds are my favourite CAS…

The cannon Tempest is very effective against aircraft. Almost as if the AP was (AP)HE…

NO freaking way! There are very effective SPAAs like the US M16 or russian BTR-152, but players want to use SPPAs as TDs, so they go for the low RoF - high pen AAs and then cry, that they suck against aircraft…
Skills should not be replaced with arcade features in non-arcade modes. A decent player with an autocannon/HMG SPAA can quite easily deal with anything that flies at low ranks. Maps are small and aircraft slow, so giving SPAAs a “radar” would pretty much erase CAS from low rank battles. If that’s your goal, just say it and join the TO club…

2 Likes
1208

Yep, that’s fair

1209

You cannot estimate based on the amount of ammunition.

And then I can say German could also do the same thing, 3 bombs 3 kill, and then a 262 do 1 kill per 1 aphe, Or British using 8 rockets 8 kills, and also shot down all enemies’ CAS

Most of time yak will only have a couple of chances to CAS and be shot down by tons of SPAAs

The CAS is a part of the ground Supplement, only relying on Ground performance will only lead to greater imbalance

1210

If it is 4.7, then we can say that, for 5.3, it is just a snack for fighters

1211

Heres the difference tho
One its a legit brick
The Yak isnt…
Stop grappling on mirrors,the Yak its OP

lie lie lie

You do understand that you can easily avoid AA when youre shooting cannons and not dropping bombs?
Evade rate 999%

5 Likes
1212

TL;DR - Planes in RB get much more benefit from RB’s mode control and camera characteristics than SPAAG do, and also often outnumber the SPAAGs. Thus giving SPAAGs an aim assist is compensation for all that.

My goal is to dismember the TO club, not to join it, FYI. And making SPAAG intentionally as easy to swat CAS with as CAS is to bomb their tanks is the perfect way to do so. The horse is dragged to water, and its now its choice to drink - if it dies of thirst, now its nobody’s fault but its own.

That club’s main arguments are “SPAAG are too hard to learn/ineffective” and “why do we need to grind a whole separate tree to counter CAS effectively.” So I would intentionally co-opt both of those, leaving them with no argument but stubborn personal preference, dismembering their “helpless victim” mentality.

SPAAGs below radar tiers are pretty ineffective. They require the plane do literally everything wrong to work, usually flying low and slow right in front of you, turning at low speed right in front of you, or (more often) flying right at you (and often trading with you). They take dozens upon dozens of matches just to get an idea for the gun lead.

And then, because of how CAS is currently implemented as a killstreak powerup, you’re far more likely to encounter tanks than aircraft. Yet you need to move outside of your own spawn to lie in wait for and get the jump on CAS. If you second-spawn SPAA, chances are someone is watching the spawn or its exits, and you’re just asking for CAS to bomb you in spawn. Yet outside the 35mm Oerlikons, the majority of SPAAGs are not effective even against the sides of most tanks they run into. People in general are not going to want to play something that’s target practice for nearly every tank and has to rely on lobotomized pilots to score kills.

Then, due to base RB mode mechanics of mouse aim and 3rd person camera, planes benefit FAR more from both of those mechanics than SPAAG do. SPAAG also, like bombers in Air RB, lack the numerical advantage they usually had, where coordinated batteries of them focused fire on single planes much of the time. In WT’s case, CAS often outnumbers the SPAAGs much as fighters outnumber the bombers in Air RB. Planes get much more of a situational awareness advantage from 3rd person camera than SPAAG do, due to the latter being stuck on overly cluttered rat maze maps. Mouse Aim also allows planes to fly in very unrealistic ways and get away with it, making opportunities to intercept them with non-radar SPAAG much less common than in reality as well. Thus the proposed short range lead marker is meant as compensation for this numbers disadvantage and behavior of the intended targets. Proposals to give SPAAGs their proper anti-air gunsights will mainly help in Simulator where planes are restricted to cockpit view, and any arguments to restrict planes to that in RB are such non-starters they aren’t worth discussing.

Removing the relevance of the “have to grind another tree” argument used by the TO guys is even simpler - giving all players in Ground RB the same sort of “Default BR-appropriate Fighter and CAS” akin to what Naval has done since its inception. Notice there isn’t a corresponding “naval only” debate? Effective counters are what most people want - the Coelian situation proved that hands-down.

And funny enough, with the devs apparently working on adding a default, BR-appropriate tank spawn automatically in everyone’s lineup cut from the same cloth, it would be even more easy to later expand that to aircraft.

Can’t have a debate for TO anymore if there are no more tank-only players. I always viewed TO supporters (outside the few absolute diehards on here and Reddit anyway) as people flailing in frustration at having no options to do anything about the CAS that gets them so angry.

Idk what planet you’re from but the M16 is not all that effective - it requires the plane is extremely close if not flying right at you to do anything, as only a sustained burst will secure a kill barring a lucky fire being set. And if the plane is flying toward you, you’ll usually end up trading with it. The BTR-152A & D are slightly more deadly, but otherwise similar. Both are also utterly helpless against even light tanks in many cases, which means that they end up sitting in spawn unable to hit CAS while their front line is being eviscerated by said CAS. And if they move toward the front line, they will be spotted by a tank somewhere and be greeted with an HE, with the chance exponentially increasing if they try to engage any plane (whether they kill said plane or not).

Giving SPHs and Heavy AAs like the Flak88, VFW, YaG-10 29-K, etc. the same aim assist would intentionally give the average player a viable anti-everything option. That’s the point, to make CAS so practical and easy to counter that nobody in their right mind can dare complain about it anymore.

With no more justifiable complaints, there can be no more ordinance nerfs, and some of the old egregious ones can even be reversed. Thereby helping heal other modes negatively impacted by said nerfs such as Air RB.

3 Likes
1213

Ignoring the fact that most ships have AI AA right?

2 Likes
1214

Why horrible idea to reduce the kill reward for ground kills in exchange for double-triple the awards for air kills? We literally have an in-game problem of too many SPAAs acting like tank destroyers instead of dedicated SPAAs, leading to autocannon hell at certain BRs. While this lower kill reward wouldn’t stop the issue, it would atleast discourage it.

1 Like
1215

The person meant reducing ground kills using air vehicles to 0.5 lol

1216

That was me, but please re-read my comment. I was solely talking about SPAA rewards there.

1217

Certain SPAAs, however, are terrible at actually killing planes

1218

Then play other SPAAs, even if they’re lower BR ones? Up to early top tier, every nation has SPAAs that excel more at plane killing than ground killing, but get a lower BR because of that reason. And honestly, I don’t care if certain SPAAs are worse, either label them as a light tank or still use them. If I can snipe planes with my ZSU-57-2 or AMX-13 DCA 40, people should learn aswell.

1219

very typical complaint for jets
Then you only suit for playing I15 or HE51

On the one hand you said using cannon is easy, and then you don’t know how to use ME262, even JU87’s record is better than your cannon CAS planes

You don’t even play any yak9k/ut You liar, what gives you the right to judge YAK9K?

Ah I see, so you only have played ME262 and then said “ME262 should be like YAKs, or it is too bad!”

How many players like you only know complain yaks at this topic but haven’t done that any time?Or how many players like you make Gaijin get worse?

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1 Like
1220

Cause its broken AF
You dont see the 262 one tapping anything with a single shot which its something the YAK its capable of doing even when you put at 7.3 - 8.3

??I never said that,i said why the YAK has to be the only plane in the entire game to have special treatment even tho its not the only plane with APHE belt and yet somehow its the only one who can one taps with 1 single shot and even by shooting bursts with the cannon doesnt affect the plane how so ever

Get real

2 Likes
1221

I do see that many times, it is easy to kill those heavy armors, considering you haven’t tried me262a1u4, that’s why you’d say that.

that’s what you said, not only expect speed, but also need it,which should not be as a legit brick

So you still haven’t played it and said it is OP? Who should face the truth there?

1 Like
1222

Or in the case of the Mosquito with the 57, its so inaccurate that to even hit anything you have to lawn dart into it.

Meanwhile even my ITP can SNIPE tanks from nearly a KM away with ease.

I legit just use the HE belts in that thing anymore due to how absolutely overpowered Overpressure is anymore.

1 Like
1223

Yea but just let people play the way they want man. Sure you can increase rewards for air kills, but don’t punish people that want to use their SPAA as a tank destroyer