Talking about how most maps are becoming CQC/frontal engagement. Been playing since 2013 and was a ground CBT member. They’ve constantly been redding zones out, making it where you can’t flank via rough terrain (by adding rocks/tank traps or making solid ground somehow slick) and changing entire maps to get rid of anything that permits flanking (hell, look at Kuban and the massive change it had for a great example of that).
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I hate the codification of maps SO MUCH
So many spots were blocked off
It feels like every update is made with spite, intentionally making the game less fun to play
Being able to go up many hills and other areas for a slightly stronger position which an aircraft can easily counter you made the game so much more fun
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Yeah thats true. However i’d argue that there are still plenty of hulldown positions where nato tanks actually have an advantage over russia, but thats another story.
No no bro like that other guy said, “they want you to have fun”
Lowkey good change as it made playing the rest of the map way more difficult. That route was also almost all CQC unless you camped and overlooked most of the map, or spawncamped the enemy team with ease.
Those have always existed (tho the entire premise sucks tbf) but the red zones blocking the outer areas are definitely new.
I don’t disagree with Gaijin blocking the southern hill on Ash River as it makes getting the cap actually possible, but a lot of map changes and new maps have been mediocre at best.
I also want people to not think that bigger=better, as maps are more dependent on how many routes there actually are to take, rather than size alone. Look at Sun City being utterly abysmal despite being on the larger side, vs Rhine being the best designed and smallest GRB map in the game.
Gaijin wants you to have enough fun to keep playing the game, but enough frustration to want to buy things to make the game more fun.
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To be fair, Russian tanks are designed around reverse sloping and pretty much all the top tier ones have a way to dig to negate the issue of how little they can depress their gun. Too many players attempt to just hold W and get punished for it as they should. I’ve got over double the average player stats for both my NATO and USSR tanks and I’ll be honest, the Russian tanks are far easier to run as long as you aren’t having to 5v1 because your team left after one death
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The route offered mixed gameplay and rewarded marksmanship. Do you want the game to constantly be dumbed down for people that dont care about learning it like we all did? Because I sure as hell don’t want that. But let’s agree to disagree on that.
Yeah but the fun thing about that is that if you get Battle (2 caps), its not disabled and the 2 caps are down the valley. So then what’s the point? There are plenty of people that go there to snipe, which means that you wont have someone thats camping there unbothered. I think it is balanced like that. Ofc at some point you will be forced to get down and play the objective, so in the end, it creates mixed gameplay (like on sand of sinai) and isnt as op as it looks.
Agreed, however the smaller the map, the more garbage it gets, and the ones we are talking about here are genuinely ragebait from gaijin.
True.
It was hilarious to park a Jagdtiger’s ass behind the logs in that area. They were the perfect height to hide most of the vehicle but the gun, and you could counter people trying to use the southern flank route to massacre your team mates pushing into the city. Now, if you wanna counter that flank, you just have to go there yourself.
thats 1. not what he said and 2. completely misunderstanding his point
heres what he said:
“The missions that look smaller than usual — the ones people usually mean — are actually special modes with just one or a few capture points.
The idea behind those specific missions is to offer fast, action-packed gameplay where you can play very aggressively.
Both sides clash quickly, fights happen right away, everybody gets frags and players know where to find the enemy.
The time between spawning and spotting your first target is short on purpose.
That’s why these modes, built with this specific gameplay in mind, use a limited play area.
The whole idea is to keep players focused on fighting each other, so that they get all that action, instead of just spreading out all over the map, because that slows everything down.
But that’s just one type of mission available to you. So it’s not accurate to say that maps themselves are shrinking.
In fact, those smaller mission variants have a much lower chance of appearing in matchmaking compared to regular missions — so they’re actually quite rare.”
the want some maps with fast quick action, but thats only for specific maps, not all of them.
big tunis is very rare, i was talking about through the river on A side on medium tunis
oh that area? i forgot that even existed tbh, that area was awful
you want me to read your mind? all you said was “think of european province”
theres still a billion sniping spots all over that map, how am i supposed to know what specific one youre talking about
im arguing that its not that consequential because the larger variants of the maps still exist, adding a new smaller variant is fine because the big full map versions still exist
literally the whole game until like 10.3 rewards marksmanship
its almost like its two different variants of the map that focus on achieving different gameplay within the same map
which is far less true in conquest, like once they get the point they barely need anyone down there to defend the point and can focus most of their force ontop of the hill while the enemy team has to do the opposite leaving them in an explicity unfair position
image spoilered for smaller quote
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okay lil bro, theres a billion things they could do if they really wanted to maximise profits but they didnt do because of community pushback, you think they would care about community pushback if they didnt want the community to enjoy the game? they tried to put timers on backups, they wanted premium modifications, etc. the community said we dont want this it would make the game suck and they listened
bruh thats what i said
yeah you know what else we havent gotten in 2-3 years, an actual new map, like i said
to be clear, I also do not like the shitty conquest map spam, but my problem is with conquest itself not the redzoning of areas of the conquest maps
You know ball. That’s what was fun. Rewards skill and knowledge of the map. How do you think i learned that? I saw someone using against me, I tried it, perfected it and had fun using it. But no, now we have to dumb down things because people don’t want to learn, they want their free kill and that’s it.
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“Not what he said” then proceeds to to literally repeat exactly what i said with extra steps. It’s also exactly what i said i didn’t like about the maps, the restriction, the wot-like fast gameplay that doesn’t fit a game like war thunder. We can agree at least that the gameplay offered by such layout is just garbage, and only leads to people getting frustrated? Which then again is also exactly what i said, later on?
No even on small normal Tunisia. The “open flank route” is literally an open field of sand with 0 cover, and anyone with the slightest situational awareness can completely block any attempt at pushing that. The better flank routes would be in the middle of the map actually, then sneaking up to spawns and sniping people as they come out. Matter of fact, the rework on Tunisia just made the map more wide open and easier for CAS. Big Tunisia went from ok-ish to abysmal because of that.
What? I literally talked about that specific position literally a few minutes before you started replying to me.
Yeah you don’t make the game better by adding 0 new good map and just adding more garbage layouts btw, which is my point. Who cares there are still ok maps if half the battles i have are these single cap slopfest maps?
“whole game rewards marksmanship” and it’s literally people shooting at eachother at point blank range, most of the time. If i get one more time Sweden im gonna lose my mind.
How is it different? The objectives are in the valley. One layout allows you to punish whoever is pushing towards said objectives, the other doesnt. Its the exact same objectives, just one layout allows you to spread out, the other doesnt. They literally just forgot to restrict the upper area on Battle layout.
Excepted it’s not true, because there are as many enemies as allies on that position, at the beginning of the game. People know how powerful that position is. Whoever wins that position controls the lower part of the map. So it’s a skill issue in the end.
Okay lil bro, it’s no secret that their main way of selling out stuff to players is frustration. If you want to cope about that, feel free to do that but nobody’s believing you on that one. They only listened when things got out of proportions. I’m not even arguing with that, if you’re too blind to see it, that’s on you.
Nope you said they dont want the game to be frustrating, they dont want poor gameplay, they want you to enjoy but the progression must remain slow to keep you addicted. Which is literally false, seeing all the bullshit they’ve been up to in the past 2-3 years, and how worse the game has gotten, and them turning a deaf ear towards the community. Again, if you want to cope and say “everything is fine”, you do you, but you’re dying on that hill on your own. But i agree with the progression/addiction part. My point is that their main selling point is frustration over everything else.
If the game was fun and perfectly balanced, but the grind was long, people would buy 1 premium to grind quicker, maybe premium time, and that’s it. But no, every now and then they introduce new op vehicles, rendering older vehicles useless/non-meta, or they nerf some things without any regards to balance, which then makes the game frustrating to play, which then leads people to buy the new op stuff that came out.
Ok but how is this relevant to what I said…?
We agree on that then, I only think both are a detriment to the gameplay, and that gaijin doesnt care because it fits their agenda.
yeah but the saving grace is that it still only applies to the specific maps intended for it, not everything
thats kinda a good thing? a flank route thats just free and easy to take is kinda no better for the game than no having a flank route? like the down hill segment in non-sands sinai where whatever team (normally the south team) takes it first just gets to spawncamp very soon after the start of the game with good cover.
yeah obviously, but i also just dont think the game has actively got any worse because of the questionable layouts, like the game having bad maps has always been a complaint but like i feel the gamemode problems and gaijins eternal vendetta against giving out consistent regular (more than once a year) decompression are far more problematic and at least the latter does get progressively worse over time
yeah thats the difference
apart from like battle cargo port and i think 38th parallel, there arent really battle maps with major redzones that arent in the standard domination modes
its hard to call it a skill issue when it applies to a whole team because theres not much I could do about it
i said they dont want it to be frustrating past a certain point
CM Covert Disclosures: What We’re Up To & News (all of them)
[Development] [RoadMap] War Thunder Changes Roadmap - News - War Thunder
[Event] Nuclear Thunder! - News - War Thunder
[Development] Regarding the Hull Armor of the M1A2 SEP V3 - News - War Thunder
etc etc.
that is what most people do, then maybe if they want after they finish that tech tree they do another sometimes
the forums tend to be far more filled with people who are far more willing to spend money or time on this game than the normal player
because nerfs and buffs arent given out based on balance, theyre given out based on whatever source gaijin were given in a bug report from 2+ years ago
people do that regardless of whether their favourite vehicle or whatever has been nerfed recently
There are no maps intended for 5 minutes slop fest. Thats why they put extra borders. That’s why we’re here.
You missed my point. The flank route itself isnt the field of sand, its what awaits you once you flanked. The whole route leads to nothing.
But it very much has, that’s why BVVD was asked to talk about this. Because enough people noticed the quality of gameplay go down over the years, as they started introducing that. Stop “thinking” there is no thinking, the map layouts ARE objectively bad, there is no opinion to have here. There are other problems too, but you cant just wipe this one away because “you don’t think”.
There is no difference but the one gaijin accidentally created. That’s just silly.
Never claimed there were. I was talking about them blocking parts of the map on CONQUEST, not Battle.
If your “whole team” is composed of people that all share a braincell, then yeah, tough luck, it is a skill issue on their end. You can mitigate that by going yourself on the hill and try your best there, and if you chose not to, then skill issue on your end too when you get sniped from above.
Bro… idk what to tell you… If you’re gullible enough to just believe they are listening with these half baked posts, genuinely idk what to tell you. This is classical PR talk. Literal nothing burger.
Absolutely not lol. Most of people you face have multiple premiums, multiple top tier premiums. They are mindless consuming sheep. That’s why Sloprai Maidens didn’t flop.
That plus nerfs to br, reload, mechanics, etc.
Oh really? People all rushed to buy T-58, BMPT-72, Turm-III etc for no reason at all? Not because they are game breaking on purpose to give people willing to spend money a chance to escape the regular wt slop? Yeah, that must be it.
i meant the missions not the maps
Spoiler
nothing? looks to me like the cap, the enemy’s route to the cap and the enemy spawn itself are all accessible through the route, its not like theres a shortage of low hills or rocks to take cover behind either
the map layouts have always been objectively bad
people always notice recent things more than old things
what do you mean accidentally?, they put the redzone there on the conquest and didnt on the battle version, who are you to say one was an accident
you literally did talk about the battle layout which like i said, we have no reason to think they forgot to restrict the upper area on the battle layout because they dont normally restrict areas on battle versions
bro, you clearly have so little hope for this game that im surprised you care this much, excuse me for wanting to think the world is a better place for gaijin actually engaging with the community at all
gaijin have stated in the past and we have no reason to believe why they would downplay this number as a higher number would be explicitly better for them in PR terms that about 20% of players have ever spent any money on this game
the standard way for free to play games to make money is to let everyone play the game while being held afloat by a smaller percentage of ‘whales’ who buy nearly everything and engage with everything
if you recall i didnt say people dont rush to buy them because theyre OP, i said people dont rush to buy them specifically because their favourite thing got nerfed which is what you said, people dont need to be frustrated from nerfs or whatever to want an easy way out of the increasingly slow progression to top tier or an easy way to experience being good at the game
here see:
I don’t mind some maps being the WT equivalent to operation metro. But it does feel like at times it’s all I get. I love white rock fortress for that exact reason.
Maps that are too big for 6.7 are also far too common to see as well. Large Poland and east Europe should not exist below 8.3.
We need more intermediate maps in rotation, coupled up with a tweaked version of advance being in mode rotation
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Pretty much.
From a competitive standpoint, variety is what matters. I always say it should be like the Formula 1 calendar, where you have a variety of circuits with different technical characteristics, that will favour different teams/car design philosophies in turn, thus benefitting the show.
In WT terms this means you should have big maps and small maps, maps that favour flanking and maps that favour frontal engagements, maps where you need gun depression and flat maps, so on and so forth.
Where this analogy breaks down though, is that Formula 1 teams and drivers are paid to be there. WT players are either playing for free or paying to support the company. So if they don’t like something, of course Gaijin is gonna indulge them, it’d be insane of them not to do so. This is why the maps get smaller and smaller, because on average, players in WT don’t actually enjoy variety. They say they do, but then they always prefer standardisation instead. Doing the same thing over and over and over. You can see this in other areas of the game too, like BP challenges, event tasks, and so on.
To Gaijin’s credit, they have found a way to try and square the circle, because there are maps that manage to seamlessly incorporate every style. Aral Sea and Test Site are examples of absolute bangers imho, where you can snipe, push or flank and still contribute to the match; and you have both areas that are flat and areas where you can exploit gun depression.
The problem with these is simply that people hate getting sniped by someone they couldn’t see. So Gaijin’s solution was to remove as many of the long sightlines as possible. On Eastern Europe this is particularly obvious. Before, it was possible to have sniping duels at 2km between, say, a Jagdtiger and a T29. Now, that’s simply not feasible, so the “large map” simply becomes a map where you have to drive a lot in order to get close to a cap and do the same 500m engagement we always do. Of course people dislike that. But they disliked the original too, and that’s sad.
Fields Of Poland is one of the few maps where it is still possible to get long range kills. A few weeks ago with the Jagdtiger at the windmills I nailed a T26E1 on first try at 1440m. Felt good, and I’d be sad if it disappeared.
In 2023 I was a much worse player than I am now, but ironically I was a better marksman at long range because it was far more frequent to have 1.5km/2km engagements with tank destroyers. My longest range kill was a T26 on large Fire Arc which I killed broadside at 2700m, and if I was starting the game today, I would simply never get that experience.
I get why that is, but to me it’s still sad.
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Before you reach actual good flanking position, you have to cross open space which can be very easily defended because the campers sit on high ground over there, all the time.
Sure you might get lucky and they don’t notice you, however, like I said, if they have the slightest situational awareness, that’s not happening.
It gets even worse on Battle and Conquest mode
Granted the one on Battle layout isn’t that relevant, but I’d make it work and punish anyone pushing out of their spawn, if i spawned north.
That’s the thing. There used to be some Conquest maps back in the days. If I remember correctly, the objective was always at the center of the map, and there where no parts of the map blocked off. Then they started introducing new Conquest layouts in the matchmaking, with new blocked parts. This IS new. There is no “recency bias” here, it really is a recent thing. The maps indeed have always had issues, but the worst part is recent. There’s no arguing here. This is why it was addressed recently, this is why we’re here.
It’s my theory that they simply forgot, and soon enough they’ll catch up and block it off too. They’re not the brightest when it comes to fixing maps (for instance they literally dont fix bugs on maps, rework them and carry on the bugs on the reworked version). But maybe you’re right and they don’t block off anything on battle version. It’s still really silly honestly.
Oh really, im the hopeless one, right…
You see the thing is that I have some experience with businesses like Gaijin ruining their product. I mentioned Wargaming earlier (from WoT). This is what they do. They let their greed run rampant, do absolutely nothing to make the game better. Then eventually they post an apology, or something that takes in feedback. They’re like “See? We care about your feedback!” Then comes the time to apply said feedback. What happens? Nothing! Why? Because it’s just damage control PR speech.
Coming back to Gaijin, what feedback are they taking in exactly?
People complain about useless vehicle types (such as bombers). What do they do? Nothing.
People complain about rare and very sought after vehicles being locked behind a triple A game price tag paywall. What do they do? Add more of them behind a paywall.
People complain about crazy inaccuracies and lack of balance at top tier (turret rings, tank rounds, CAS ordinance, SPAA, etc) What do they do? Post some half backed apology, ask people to make ticket with sources then deny everything because “We think…”
You can’t make everyone happy. But when your entire “feedback input” is all about posting random half-backed “apology” on the forums and doing absolutely nothing with the received feedback in the game, you in fact can’t make ANYONE happy at all.
They released Nuclear Escalation. Realized it was good. They pretty much destroyed it a few days later.
They released Advances. Looked good on paper. Totally untested by them, completely unbalanced because of how horrendous the maps are.
But hey guys! We care right? Am I right?
Besides, this is a whole other story, it’s got nothing to do with the current thread, we could talk about this one for weeks.
Yeah if you count the millions of level 0 accounts that have barely touched the game, but let’s pretend that’s true.
And why would they want that exactly? Maybe because they are frustrated that they cannot achieve that with tech tree vehicles?
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okay?
- thats kinda contrary to what you just said
- like i said this is fine for a flank route, flankers shouldnt get impunity to being shot at just because theyre special and smarter than everyone else and only they figured out flanking is a good idea
- plus its not like its the only flank route, due to the nature of how people play the game (that being mostly going to predictable places, its quite easy to flank by going through the middle of the map, if youre careful and watch for people watching from the blue areas, you can exploit the red area quite effectively
Spoiler
yeah because the maps change shape so it means to have to utilise different areas
the only good conquest maps tbh
i was speaking more broadly in regards to the game as a whole, and while you can say that there are specific areas that have gotten worse, there are also definitely areas where the game has gotten better and imo they mostly balance out and the quality of the game has stayed pretty stagnant at least since i started playing in like 2018
yeah i think you are
we know from slighty more recent testimony that there are some significant internal systemic issues within gaijin, but that doesnt mean theyre completely crippled and unable to do anything, just (imo) extremely slow in achieving it, take the gamemodes for example not having good gamemodes was something people were complaining about like 5 years ago, and we have only just started to see the results of that (i assume theyve been working on it for at least half that time, based on my experience working in a similar field)
i mean yeah thats why theyre still working on those gamemodes and they havent been pushed into being a permanent addition yet
just remember in the last decade the only other gamemode (not counting naval) thats been added is like air EC, and then we get two new gamemodes in one year, thats pretty good
if erwin rommel himself attempted his usual tactics on war thunder maps all his vehicles would explode because he ran out of time limit when crossing red zones
HAH XD