Why is the P-51D such a nightmare to play?

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

@dоt

You could give US mains a P47D28 at 1.0 and they would still cry. Need more handhold than you already have? This is so out of place with the US playerbase:

My dude this entire thread is about how US props suck because of Gaijin’s game design, how tf are US props if that is the case?

@dоt

Lol.

F8F-1: 4x 12.7mm, 19.0s turn time (TT for brevity), 25.2 m/s rate of climb (RoC), currently 5.0

Yak-3: 1x 20mm + 2x 12.7mm, 17.4s TT, 21.3 RoC, currently 4.3
Typhoon Mk Ib/L: 4x 20mm, 19.5s TT, 19.5 RoC, currently 4.3
Bf 109 F-4: 1x20mm + 2x 7.92mm, 19.0s TT, 20.0 RoC, currently 4.0

What I compared it to initially → Spitfire Mk Vc: 4x 20mm, 16.2s TT, 19.7 RoC, currently 5.0

I’m revising my statement, the F8F-1 should be 4.3 actually (maybe 4.0), not 4.7.

@dоt

My god.

P-47D-22-RE: 8x 12.7mm, 25.0s TT, 10.0 RoC, currently 3.7
P-47D-25: 8x 12.7mm, 25.0s TT, 10.6 RoC, currently 4.3
P-47D-28: 8x 12.7mm, 23.0s TT, 14.1 RoC, currently 5.0
P-47N-15: 8x 12.7mm, 30.0s TT, 14.0 RoC, currently 4.7

La-5F: 2x 20mm, 21.2s TT, 15.6 RoC, currently 3.3
I-185: 3x 20mm, 22.0s TT, 18.5 RoC, currently 3.7
Spitfire Mk IIb: 2x 20mm + 4x 7.7mm, 15.1s TT, 19.4 RoC, currently 3.7
Sea Hurricane Mk IC: 4x 20mm, 17.0s TT, 8.0 RoC, currently 3.0
Fw 190 A-1: 2x 20mm + 4x 7.92mm, 20.2s TT, 14.1 RoC, currently 3.0
Fw 190 A-4: 4x 20mm + 2x 7.92mm, 22.0s TT, 14.1 RoC, currently 4.0

Yeah my suggestion for all P-47’s to be 3.3-3.7 seems to be holding up.

@dоt

P51C should sit on 4.7

(Will likely be reusing plane data I’ve already typed at this point since it’s 3:00am)
P-51C-10: 4x 12.7mm, 21.0s TT, 16.2s RoC, currently 3.7

Purely going off of the planes provided above for the P-47’s, the P-51C could probably go to 3.3.

@dоt

P51D10/30 should sit on 5.0/5.3 respectively as well

P-51D-30: 6x 12.7mm, 20.0s TT, 22.7 RoC, currently 5.0

Going off of the planes listed previously (in the F8F-1 section), it could go down to 4.0-4.3 actually.

@dоt

P38 are fine where they are at

P-38J-15: 1x 20mm + 4x 12.7mm, 21.5s TT, 19.6 RoC, currently 4.3
P-38L-5-LO: 1x 20mm + 4x 12.7mm, 22.0s TT, 19.3 RoC, currently 4.7

Same spiel, these could go to 3.7 actually.

@dоt

F6F5N should be 4.0

F6F-5N: 2x 20mm + 4x 12.7mm, 21.0s TT, 11.8 RoC, currently 4.3

Same spiel, could go down to 3.3

Anyways I’m going to go to sleep now but yeah as you can see my suggestions are reasonable.

[Richardguy]

everything you’ve written here is a fantasy and flies in the face of historical records, in which the P-47D equipped USAAF and their British allies broke the back of the Luftwaffe in 1943.

[Wishie7119]

The biggiest nerf to US planes was when they reduced the timer to 25min thus not allowing such planes as the pP1D 20NA to get into orbit before the battle ends 😆

[BlackberryAvar]

US teams are horrible at any tier. For whatever reason, we are bad, so any good plane in USA looks bad because your team is happy to get 40% WR.

Most US planes dont need to sideclimb to 6k, they need to stay out of sight until the whole enemy team goes low and then farm the guys in the furball. You don’t need to be the highest plane in the lobby, just higher than the planes fighting you.

As for P-47s I suggest giving the D-22, D-25 and N-15 variants airspawns and raising their BRs to the 4.3-5.0 range (I don’t see why P-47N should be higher than P-38L even with an airspawn. It’s just a heavy chonker that dies to 2 rounds of shvak).

If you ‘just sideclimbed’ and then played top-to-bottom the P-47D22 used to be good and the D25 was okay but the maps were not designed for 16v16 and now when you lose there’s 5 dudes on you and 5 dudes after tickets. So P-47s really need a way to stay relevant.

[BlackberryAvar]

I agree for the most part but the D-25 and N-15 have zero match presence. You don’t perform well enough to survive long down low and your firepower doesn’t mean as much as it used to considering what shvaks have become. So you have nothing to work with and the 4.0 P-63 is better at its job than you.

[dоt]

Found someone who goes of statcards for performance :) my point still stands. First go figure out if statcards are correct and how those numbers on them actually came to be and what they mean. Your suggestion is bonkers.

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

Explain how, because so far I’m the only person using actual scientific evidence in my argument. So far when I’ve gone into the datamines the values for the things I’ve checked have been correct (and I’ve searched up a lot of stuff), so I don’t feel the need to check every single one of the tens of values I provided for you.

[Wishie7119]

@BlackberryAvar

Most US planes dont need to sideclimb to 6k, they need to stay out of sight until the whole enemy team goes low and then farm the guys in the furball. You don’t need to be the highest plane in the lobby, just higher than the planes fighting you.

I like what you said there. I would like to add, side climb till both teams meet and the furball starts to drop, then bomb in, zoom out

[dоt]

Scientific evidence?

Go do test flights and actual in game measurements of performance RoC, top speed at different altitudes, turn rate, turn radius, and what not. Then go compare to statcards. This game is over 10 years old and well known.

Those values in the datamine around what you posted, are the values for wiki and statcard. They have nothing to do with actual plane performance. Take P47D28 for example, those values are derived on full fuel and weapon loadout. Who does that? Now go look at values on minfuel and clean.

What those values also don’t tell you is about compression values at speed, acceleration, low speed handling, roll rate, turn radius.

It’s just some static numbers arrived on using a specific weapon/fuel load at a specific altitude, and these configurations also differ per plane, by nation, you cannot compare them.

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

My dude how would the literal code of the game change from the files to during flying?

[dоt]

That’s NOT the code of the game. And read my edit above.
Without you going to go do actual testing, your comments are useless.

But you want a simple example? Sure.

P47D28
Actual rate of climb on 20 minute fuel and clean wings is 19.7 m/s from 0 to 6000 meters (average RoC over the whole distance). Now lets look at RoC from 4000m to 6000m, this would be 19 m/s.

Fw190A4
Actual RoC on 20 minute fuel and clean over the same distance is 16.8 m/s. Again, lets look at 4000-6000m, this comes at 15.7 m/s.

Nevermind about top speed, P47 is faster at any altitude. It can also turn with a 190 if it wants. A 190A4 isn’t going to do anything at all against a P47D28 and they can already meet each other being 1.0 BR apart… and you are here saying not only should they meet on the regular, but a P47D28 should be meeting 2.3-2.7s… LOL

You see where all your data falls apart now?

I don’t even know why you are arguing here at all, your most flown US prop is the P38L and you have altogether 5 games in it with 6 kills, the next thing is a P38J and you have 5 games in it too with 0 kills. Maybe first do a little searching in yourself if its really the plane that’s bad. Oh sorry, you also flew the P61 which is great fun, 10 games with 1 kill and 9 deaths. You have no games whatsoever in any other nation except 5 wholes games in Germany with reserve planes an the He100.

You clearly fall into the “New player picks US and claims the nation sucks” category.

[Mofker]

Found this thread after a quick Google search. I am in utter disbelief how impossible it is to enjoy Amerian props right now. Every single game I end up alone and helpless.

This screenshot is 3 minutes into my latest game. I was climbing together with my team, did a merge with the enemies and I look back around, noticing my entire team now gone.

Asking around I just get responses like “Skill issue” or “Just Boom N Zoom bro”
Even if I did spend 10-15 minutes climbing and the game didn’t end before I spot the enemy team, what difference would it make? I would still be in the same situation.

Something needs to be done about this. American props is unplayable unless you enjoy self-torture.

[dоt]

Bad teams aren’t helping the US… many new players pickup that nation first (both pilots and tankers grinding their CAS). Nothing to do with US props being bad, because they aren’t…

Take an example, I have an alt… P51D30 on the US tech tree I got 75:14 over 30 games with 67% WR, not great…

Now take the same plane in China, P51K, I got 53:2 over 16 games with 88% WR…

The plane is fine, undertiered as heck tbh, but the teams are hot garbage a lot of times. And US planes lose a lot of their viability without a team as they rely a lot on speed, and to reset an engagement when it failed just takes too much time to make them very viable on their own. Person can just start following you, another starts climbing, and your speed advantage will soon be nullified and you won’t have positional advantage either. Then add another 4+ enemies on top of that, you see where this is going

[Wishie7119]

You only have to be in a match when playing early jets and your see US team flying f84’s not extending enough

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

@dоt

I don’t even know why you are arguing here at all, your most flown US prop is the P38L and you have altogether 5 games in it with 6 kills, the next thing is a P38J and you have 5 games in it too with 0 kills.

I played almost exclusively AB until Tier IV (the Tier IV before the economy/foldering changes), and only started playing RB with Attackers and Bombers because of the massive disadvantages American props have in comparison to everything else. I could literally go from being a consistent top three on an AB team to dying in the first engagement because a Bf 109 was going faster and higher than me already (even if I stayed at the back of the pack and side climbed).

Anyways, yeah here’s the stats from the game code showing a (at max) 4.95% beneficial difference in RoC and a 0.806% unfavorable difference in TT from the Wiki’s values:

Here is the Fw 190 A-4’s values, showing that it actually benefits in RoC by 33.0% and also benefits in TT by 8.34% from the Wiki:

I’m not sure how this proves that the Fw 190 A-4 deserves to be at a lower BR than the P-47d-28.

Additionally, these values are not being changed by much except for the Fw 190 A-4, which is the first large anomaly I’ve seen in the game code after going through the F-15A, Su-27, Pantsir, TOR-M1, 9M331, 95Ya6, AIM-54C, R27-ER files.

[Real_K_Soze]

@SpeclistMain

I’m not sure how this proves that the Fw 190 A-4 deserves to be at a lower BR than the P-47d-28.

If you might agree that the D-28 and the D-30 are almost identical, i encourage you to fly them both (the 190 A-4 and the D-30) and you will see that the D-30 is a beast and the 190 A-4 flies like a brick (see thread 190s FM) - the only advantage of the 190 is the better roll - but this can be countered by throttle drop or air brake.

Just get rid of stat cards, they are just indicators. If you don’t trust the fellow player above - compare the premium XP-50 (TT 19.0 sec.) with the TT B7A2 (TT 28.0 sec.). A clear case for the XP-50 on paper, but the B7A2 will outturn the XP-50 any day of the week - together with YaK-3 and all 109s except the E-4 at BR 3.0.

[充满妈妈问题]

I don’t think decreasing BR’s will solve US plane problems, only real difference is that you will outrun people faster but still won’t turn with them and stuff.
Biggest problem really for me is that they are too reliant on teams (which are usually something you can’t rely on) on a squad they are very lethal as shown in several YouTube videos, but as Defyn said one time “the only thing it does well is running away and that’s it”.

I really disliked P-47’s though, bit too fat for my taste (but still better than La-9’s and La-11’s), with P-38 being probably my favorite out of the 3.
Also gaijin please put the P-51K back into rank IV

[dоt]

Can you stop misrepresenting flightmodel files if you don’t understand them. Those screenshots you show, scroll up, what do you see under which topic those fall?

Yes, that’s right, those are values fed to the WT wiki, and they absolutely do NOT represent actual in game performance, see my earlier responses.

If you want to look at actual FM data, you need to look within the flightmodel folder, there you have a fm folder that contains the actual FM. But, in there you need to ignore everything under "Passport". The flight performance itself is calculated using everything at the beginning of the file (top to passport). See for example the P-47D-28. It does NOT contain any “climb speed” or “top speed” and whatnot. Those are calculated by the game engine when fed all the information.

Again, if you want to see actual performance in game, you need to test in game. The FM files aren’t going to tell you, neither are the statcards, neither the WT wiki. You can use plugins like WTRTI to document in game performance during test flight into a .csv file which you can then import into a program like Excel and graph out the performance in detail and compare planes against each other if you so wish.

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

That’s my bad on the wiki section, I just used Ctrl+F for ease of use and it was already off of my screen. I knew about the fm files but assumed the values within the main file were a combination of the information given within the fm file (where the fm file wouldn’t actually be used in game, where it was just a list of base values that were fed into a function by the devs to create the main .blkx within the flightmodels folder), kind of like the flightmodels file was the output of compiling (as an analogy) the fm file.

[dоt]

One would wish it worked that way, but unfortunately it doesn’t. The values on the wiki/statcard are entirely arbitrary and don’t represent anything