Why is the P-51D such a nightmare to play?

[RXDimA]

I could just provide server replays to demonstrate what I mean. When I get an appropriate game with the concept on display, I’ll post it here.

Edit: while I’m looking for an appropriate game in the P-51C (vs a better climbing, slower opponent), you can take a look at this older server replay I have in the F8F-1. Make sure to sometimes use sensor view to see energy states, and player camera view (cam 2 on the top UI) to see how people think.
replay link
@ 6:44 a Ki-44 and Bf-109 start chasing me. I energy trap them with speed and separation. After going up, by the moment I and the Ki-44 had the same TAS, I was 1.3 km above him.
@ 11:41 another Ki-44 starts chasing me, with some B7A2s coming to the fight later on. Same speed + separation tactic.
@ 15:39 a B7A2 gets very close to my six. Same tactic once again, but he ends up turning away.
@ 17:59 same B7A2 returns for a chase. He doesn’t dare to go up.

Edit 2: Here’s a replay of me in a P-51C vs higher La-5F. As a result of encouraging a high speed chase, I ended up with energy advantage. replay link
Fight starts at 15:08 but I was trying to encourage him to attack me even before that. He needed to feel safe and above me so I gave him the opportunity.

[oinkmoo]

My intention is that it really is talking about my previous post to begin with. If it wasn’t already obvious enough.

[oinkmoo]

Cool, It’s showing what you said exactly, the F8F fighting against G-2 and Ki-44-ii was really cool.
Though it sounds like I’m against you for something, but just a clarification. F8F is 100kph faster at the same altitude compared to the fighters it faces, it climbs at the staggering 31 meters per second at the ground level. Slightly greater than the 27 to 28 meter per second of the Ki-44-ii. G-2 having the exact same climb rate as F-4 at lower speed ( dunno about the shallow climb.) This is completely off topic but F8F’s 2350hp goes way beyond that due to the ram air in supercharger-less settings, I think it was treated as gear 1. Wasn’t it like a goat-horn something, the physical trumpet shape of the super charger intake duct behind the engine. Otherwise the gear 2 configuration caps the horsepower at 2370hp, So it actually doesn’t have 2850hp like the X-ray suggests, atleast in usual plays. I think the plane reaches like 680kph at the deck. Whereas, most fighters of the era could reach 600kph or not, Tempest is 612 to 620kph, and that’s what I believe is the next fastest prop plane at the deck. This could be wrong, as for anything.
Now I realized I can’t see other’s pre-edited comments, I’ll make it clear that my edits are right after the initial posting, I fixed the F8F’s climb rate to 31 from 34, after my testing. And Changed Ki-44-ii’s 27 to “27 to 28”. And added the last one third of my comments. The horse power and speed values are untouched.

My accusation, is that the enemy is dumb enough to follow the shallow climb, otherwise the enemies could have just climb at way steeper angle to overcome the vertical reach issue. The distance would be made but at least they could keep up in the altitude, maybe they can fly toward different directions, that could have been more tactical for them. Tough, they just followed you in a straight line and it’s an unchangeable truth. So it seems to be 100% legit way to fight back. It’s just my coulda shoulda, again. Anyway.
I’d say I’m impressed by your plays. Very intriguing way of playing the commonly misunderstood planes, I’mma learn few things to imitate that. Both F8F and Ki-44-ii settles around 25 meters per second at mid altitude. F8F having it 2 or 3 mps higher. F8F is definitely better at shallow climb, both keeping the speed and climb rate at lower angle. I’m assuming it’s due to the wing loading and the wing tip drag at various AoA, but it could be from other factors too. I see the point in extending away.

[RXDimA]

Any comments about the P-51C vs La-5F replay? It somewhat addresses your hypothetical opponent that climbs over the faster plane, as can be seen in the first encounter with the La-5F.

I will try finding a Pyorremyrsky opponent next, which would be a perfect example.
In the mean time, here are high speed examples with Yak-3 vs Zeros: replay link
Yak-3 feels kinda lame for this purpose, but it could be my inexperience.
Engagements at 9:44, 12:43, and 22:06.

Also, you may be interested in this:

Spoiler

This is speed of planes across various climb rates. All data points taken at the deck, or close to it. The general trend is that faster planes gain energy better than slower planes at shallower climb angles.

[oinkmoo]

La-5f’s power output is 1650hp at deck, 1500hp at 3000m, 1430hp at 3500m, 1270hp at 4500m. The continuous climbing really did a number on that enemy La-5f. The highest point of that energy trap maneuver is happened to be 4700m. It seems like a really thought out tactic to me. Since I have nothing against it, all I could say is nice. It seemed like La-5 Tried keeping the nose up instead of regaining the speed to properly put the nose up again, after the first vertical zoom. I’m assuming that P-51 can do similar thing by making a long slightly descending horizontal turn to make a fake headon, then zooming after a very short horizontal flight, while the enemy tries to do a 180. The enemy’s energy must be low right after the enemy does 180, it would be a nice opportunity. I think it’s dangerous but I’ll experiment with that myself, when I would be able to boot up the game next time.
The D-9 kill was really precise in the Yak-3 vs D-9 demo you handed us.
All these replays are interesting and makes me learn tactics that are new to me.
Also, I realized that the A6M5 was deploying the flaps during the flight, even though the A6M5 was chasing you in a direct line. I think it’s an oversight, but until then he was equal in the speed. The enemy flopped a big time.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@RXDimA

Untrue. There are some things other than headons that you can do using a speed difference.

1. When climbing at shallow angles (in the average matchup, 10 m/s is a safe bet), you, in the faster plane, will gain more energy than the slower opponent (that follows you aggressively). Using that energy you accumulate over time, you can reset a fight.
2. By going fast and having a slower opponent follow you, you create separation. Since you have more kintetic energy, you can convert into more potential energy (= altitude). With the separation the opponent has to overcome, you create an energy trap. As you do passes, the opponent must bleed speed to dodge so you can keep attacking more.

Not exactly true. The slower plane can simply climb aswell.

[RunaDacino]

And will either go for:

1. Zoom climb or at least steep climb where it trades most of its speed for altitude, which can leave it vulnerable if sufficient separation was achieved during the shallow climb (ergo: if the slow plane does not realize what’s happening until too late). Low speed is not just a vulnerability for running away, but also maneuverability
2. If they do react in time and go for a steep climb and break off before falling for the trap… well, they’re no longer pressuring you in the faster plane allowing you to do whatever you like.

And there’s also a third thing RXDimA didn’t mention:

Some planes turn better slow and get pretty stiff while fast, while planes that are normally expected to be boats become quite nimble provided they have speed.

I’ve had a quite handy demonstration of this in a P-51-D-5 (maneuvers nicely at 450-550 IAS) vs Bf109K4 (gets stiff above 450 IAS).

Combat between the 2 planes, broken down:

1. P-51D-5 with 480 km/h IAS @ 4.4km altitude engages Bf109K4
2. P-51D-5 sacrifices a lot of speed in a loop to gain controlling position of Bf109K4 (slows down to 370 IAS but altitude is increase to 4.8 km)
3. Bf109K4 sacrifices a lot of speed sharply turning into the P-51D-5
4. P-51D-5 sacrifices altitude to maintain speed to keep position over Bf109K4 (370 IAS, 3.7 km altitude)
5. Bf109K4 pulls out all stops and manages to almost pivot in place.
6. P-51D-5 does not keep turning, instead shallow dives away to gain separation & speed 430 km/h at 3.6 km and then merges again.
7. In the head-on that ensues neither gets a hit in.
8. P-51D-5 disengages again. After some separation, climbs some while turning around (330 km/h, 4km altitude)
9. Notices Bf109K4 start steep/zoom climbing, so P-51D-5 dives to gain speed (450 km/h, 3.7 km altitude)
10. P-51D-5 gains position on the Bf109K4 who starts diving away to escape
11. Spiralling descent ensues where P-51D-5 maintains 500 km/h speed in a relaxed lag pursuit.
12. Bf109K4 tries to pull out of the dive, P-51D-5 follows.
13. Both of them stall on top of each other and P-51D-5 maintains position.
14. They dive down to 1km altitude and turn at 550 km/h.
15. Bf109K4 cannot out turn the P-51D-5 due to flying much faster than control stiffening permits while the P-51D-5 remains perfectly controllable.
16. Bf109K4 goes down to P-51D-5 at 900 meter altitude with a final speed of 406 km/h

All speeds given in IAS.
The fight:
https://youtu.be/OxQ-yBmCxyc?si=v_QAJnos7w6VoXBB&t=202

Second fight I lost. My mistake? Didn’t dive away when I lost contact and got slow and greedy thinking that if I climbed over the clouds I could ambush him and then when he showed up, rather than dive to regain speed I climbed which sealed my fate - I served myself on a silver platter flying at 350 km/h IAS. Might have been saveable, but right wing damage made flying it too hard

[Pangolin_Fan]

@RunaDacino

And will either go for:

1. Zoom climb or at least steep climb where it trades most of its speed for altitude, which can leave it vulnerable if sufficient separation was achieved during the shallow climb (ergo: if the slow plane does not realize what’s happening until too late). Low speed is not just a vulnerability for running away, but also maneuverability
2. If they do react in time and go for a steep climb and break off before falling for the trap… well, they’re no longer pressuring you in the faster plane allowing you to do whatever you like.

That’s the slower plane’s fault for messing up.

@RunaDacino

Some planes turn better slow and get pretty stiff while fast, while planes that are normally expected to be boats become quite nimble provided they have speed.

I’ve had a quite handy demonstration of this in a P-51-D-5 (maneuvers nicely at 450-550 IAS) vs Bf109K4 (gets stiff above 450 IAS).

In the specific case of the Zero, its more manuverable than the P-51 at almost all speeds. P-51 can’t force a Zero to be fast either.

[RunaDacino]

Zeros are pitifully slow.

You still havn’t flown any zero yet though since you last complained of them, have you?

[Pangolin_Fan]

XD who’s gonna tell him?

[RXDimA]

I already addressed climbing planes. When they just go up, it’s the same exact equivalent of a fast plane going fast and extending. Just because you’re above someone doesn’t mean you win.

[RunaDacino]

Tell me what?

That you havn’t actually tried out the aircraft you complain about in either RB or SB?
The nice thing about non-premium props until rank 4 is that if a plane keeps beating you… it’s not a lot of effort to unlock it and fly it yourself to see its weaknesses and limitations. Rank 4 the grind gets a bit stupid for getting a plane on a flick of a wrist.

[Pangolin_Fan]

The Zero isn’t the only slow plane. Most people know this.

[RunaDacino]

You also havn’t flown any spitfires beyond a single rank 2 game.

[Pangolin_Fan]

I have Spitfire Mk.IX spaded, but sure, let’s go with your narrative.

[RunaDacino]

Apparently israel has spitfires.

I stand corrected.

I checked Italy SB/RB, Japan RB/SB, Britain RB/SB, Germany RB/SB, USSR RB/SB rank 2/3/4 planes.

[Pangolin_Fan]

Either way, what’s your point? Spitfire certainly ain’t slow.

[RunaDacino]

Merlin spitfires are slow, griffon ones shouldn’t be but griffon ones I havn’t flown yet so I cannot compare their performance.

P-51D-5 vs 4.0 turnfighters (RB). Denmark, +- climb 3.0 m/s, 3 km altitude, AEC. Starting measurement at 400 km/h as that's when the plane levels out from spawning in and stops jittering.

P-51D-5 vs Spit IX and A6M5

I’d have compared more but takes a fair bit of time and these are the aircraft I have experience with, and I’d need the PRO version to add more than 4 data tables to the graph at a time.

Tests aren’t perfect because increasing speed means climb rate goes up, which needs nose down, which I sometimes overdo and get a bit more acceleration than a truly altitude-hold flight could manage.

As you can see though - a key part of “spitfires ain’t slow” is the long game. Sure, she accelerates well early on but she tops out and cannot chase you.

My experience with the mk F IX and F XVI is…

I see a german prop. I move to engage. German prop does not want to engage and points nose away from me. I’m never catching the german prop.

My only hope catching jerries is similar to catching yanks - I got altitude and they’re flying slow, or they get greedy and try to dogfight me.

A6M3/A6M5 is awesome for sealclubbing, but against competent enemies it’s painful to use because everyone just runs away and you get piled on by people who you cannot pressure back as they’re way faster than you.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@RunaDacino

Merlin spitfires are slow, griffon ones shouldn’t be but griffon ones I havn’t flown yet so I cannot compare their performance.

The Jewfire has a max speed of ~330 MPH at low altitude. That’s about the same as a P-51C-11 and it gets there far quicker.

Spitfires are not slow.

@RunaDacino

As you can see though - a key part of “spitfires ain’t slow” is the long game. Sure, she accelerates well early on but she tops out and cannot chase you.

Above 330 mph (530 kph), that’s true, but if you fall below that, then the Spitfire holds the advantage, and at that point it’s game over.

@RunaDacino

I see a german prop. I move to engage. German prop does not want to engage and points nose away from me. I’m never catching the german prop.

It depends.
Fw 190s? yes.
Bf 109s? no.

@RunaDacino

A6M3/A6M5 is awesome for sealclubbing, but against competent enemies it’s painful to use because everyone just runs away and you get piled on by people who you cannot pressure back as they’re way faster than you.

It’s just as annoying being the plane that has to constantly run away. My least favorite part about the F4D-1 is that tryhard Sweden/Russia mains will follow you for miles despite being outran.

[Knightmare-night]

Honestly, as an old/new player, I’m quitting again cause of the state of not only the p51 d 30, but the American faction as a whole.

Years ago the matches were better balanced. Allies vs axis. Americans always flew with Brit’s, Russians, and other allied nations. The Germans got the Italians and Japan. Win rates were not terrible and US players could rely on Russia and Brit to cover their weaknesses. Now (due to the complaints of German mains) Germany gets the Brit’s, Japan, Russia, and a few minor nations while the US gets maybe Sweden and china.

This lop sided match maker makes any tactic null in void cause I often find myself fighting 2/3 of a team of very capable opponents alone. This isn’t just limited to the p52 either.

Even in the p39, I can have matches where I clean up 7 -8 kills in a match and I still lose. why? Cause my ammo is limited and by the Time I rearm, the rest of the enemy team is sitting at alt near the airfield, waiting. Or the bomber disappear somewhere and I can’t find them fast enough, cause again I’m alone and have to be very cautiously if I don’t want to be ambushed.

Of course I could rush ground targets and hope I don’t get shot down before I earn enough to cover the repairs, but at the point you might as well go play ground RB.

This game is just broken, made so cause gajin is greedy, and nothing is going to change that. If you want to play this game, avoid US faction, it’s an absolute waste currently.

If you have to absolutely play the US, don’t go past BR 3.3 or stick to ground RB.

As for me, I’m done, I’m not starting over with another faction just to have a decent win rate cause gajin doesn’t even bother trying to balance matches anymore cause it makes them more money.