Why is the P-51D such a nightmare to play?

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
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167

And will either go for:

  1. Zoom climb or at least steep climb where it trades most of its speed for altitude, which can leave it vulnerable if sufficient separation was achieved during the shallow climb (ergo: if the slow plane does not realize what’s happening until too late). Low speed is not just a vulnerability for running away, but also maneuverability
  2. If they do react in time and go for a steep climb and break off before falling for the trap… well, they’re no longer pressuring you in the faster plane allowing you to do whatever you like.

And there’s also a third thing RXDimA didn’t mention:

Some planes turn better slow and get pretty stiff while fast, while planes that are normally expected to be boats become quite nimble provided they have speed.

I’ve had a quite handy demonstration of this in a P-51-D-5 (maneuvers nicely at 450-550 IAS) vs Bf109K4 (gets stiff above 450 IAS).

Combat between the 2 planes, broken down:
  1. P-51D-5 with 480 km/h IAS @ 4.4km altitude engages Bf109K4
  2. P-51D-5 sacrifices a lot of speed in a loop to gain controlling position of Bf109K4 (slows down to 370 IAS but altitude is increase to 4.8 km)
  3. Bf109K4 sacrifices a lot of speed sharply turning into the P-51D-5
  4. P-51D-5 sacrifices altitude to maintain speed to keep position over Bf109K4 (370 IAS, 3.7 km altitude)
  5. Bf109K4 pulls out all stops and manages to almost pivot in place.
  6. P-51D-5 does not keep turning, instead shallow dives away to gain separation & speed 430 km/h at 3.6 km and then merges again.
  7. In the head-on that ensues neither gets a hit in.
  8. P-51D-5 disengages again. After some separation, climbs some while turning around (330 km/h, 4km altitude)
  9. Notices Bf109K4 start steep/zoom climbing, so P-51D-5 dives to gain speed (450 km/h, 3.7 km altitude)
  10. P-51D-5 gains position on the Bf109K4 who starts diving away to escape
  11. Spiralling descent ensues where P-51D-5 maintains 500 km/h speed in a relaxed lag pursuit.
  12. Bf109K4 tries to pull out of the dive, P-51D-5 follows.
  13. Both of them stall on top of each other and P-51D-5 maintains position.
  14. They dive down to 1km altitude and turn at 550 km/h.
  15. Bf109K4 cannot out turn the P-51D-5 due to flying much faster than control stiffening permits while the P-51D-5 remains perfectly controllable.
  16. Bf109K4 goes down to P-51D-5 at 900 meter altitude with a final speed of 406 km/h

All speeds given in IAS.
The fight:
https://youtu.be/OxQ-yBmCxyc?si=v_QAJnos7w6VoXBB&t=202

Second fight I lost. My mistake? Didn’t dive away when I lost contact and got slow and greedy thinking that if I climbed over the clouds I could ambush him and then when he showed up, rather than dive to regain speed I climbed which sealed my fate - I served myself on a silver platter flying at 350 km/h IAS. Might have been saveable, but right wing damage made flying it too hard

168

That’s the slower plane’s fault for messing up.

In the specific case of the Zero, its more manuverable than the P-51 at almost all speeds. P-51 can’t force a Zero to be fast either.

169

Zeros are pitifully slow.

You still havn’t flown any zero yet though since you last complained of them, have you?

2 Likes
170

XD who’s gonna tell him?

1 Like
171

I already addressed climbing planes. When they just go up, it’s the same exact equivalent of a fast plane going fast and extending. Just because you’re above someone doesn’t mean you win.

172

Tell me what?

That you havn’t actually tried out the aircraft you complain about in either RB or SB?
The nice thing about non-premium props until rank 4 is that if a plane keeps beating you… it’s not a lot of effort to unlock it and fly it yourself to see its weaknesses and limitations. Rank 4 the grind gets a bit stupid for getting a plane on a flick of a wrist.

2 Likes
173

The Zero isn’t the only slow plane. Most people know this.

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174

You also havn’t flown any spitfires beyond a single rank 2 game.

175

I have Spitfire Mk.IX spaded, but sure, let’s go with your narrative.

176

Apparently israel has spitfires.

I stand corrected.

I checked Italy SB/RB, Japan RB/SB, Britain RB/SB, Germany RB/SB, USSR RB/SB rank 2/3/4 planes.

1 Like
177

Either way, what’s your point? Spitfire certainly ain’t slow.

178

Merlin spitfires are slow, griffon ones shouldn’t be but griffon ones I havn’t flown yet so I cannot compare their performance.

P-51D-5 vs 4.0 turnfighters (RB). Denmark, +- climb 3.0 m/s, 3 km altitude, AEC. Starting measurement at 400 km/h as that's when the plane levels out from spawning in and stops jittering.

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P-51D-5 vs Spit IX and A6M5

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I’d have compared more but takes a fair bit of time and these are the aircraft I have experience with, and I’d need the PRO version to add more than 4 data tables to the graph at a time.

Tests aren’t perfect because increasing speed means climb rate goes up, which needs nose down, which I sometimes overdo and get a bit more acceleration than a truly altitude-hold flight could manage.

As you can see though - a key part of “spitfires ain’t slow” is the long game. Sure, she accelerates well early on but she tops out and cannot chase you.

My experience with the mk F IX and F XVI is…

I see a german prop. I move to engage. German prop does not want to engage and points nose away from me. I’m never catching the german prop.

My only hope catching jerries is similar to catching yanks - I got altitude and they’re flying slow, or they get greedy and try to dogfight me.

A6M3/A6M5 is awesome for sealclubbing, but against competent enemies it’s painful to use because everyone just runs away and you get piled on by people who you cannot pressure back as they’re way faster than you.

179

The Jewfire has a max speed of ~330 MPH at low altitude. That’s about the same as a P-51C-11 and it gets there far quicker.

Spitfires are not slow.

Above 330 mph (530 kph), that’s true, but if you fall below that, then the Spitfire holds the advantage, and at that point it’s game over.

It depends.
Fw 190s? yes.
Bf 109s? no.

It’s just as annoying being the plane that has to constantly run away. My least favorite part about the F4D-1 is that tryhard Sweden/Russia mains will follow you for miles despite being outran.

180

Honestly, as an old/new player, I’m quitting again cause of the state of not only the p51 d 30, but the American faction as a whole.

Years ago the matches were better balanced. Allies vs axis. Americans always flew with Brit’s, Russians, and other allied nations. The Germans got the Italians and Japan. Win rates were not terrible and US players could rely on Russia and Brit to cover their weaknesses. Now (due to the complaints of German mains) Germany gets the Brit’s, Japan, Russia, and a few minor nations while the US gets maybe Sweden and china.

This lop sided match maker makes any tactic null in void cause I often find myself fighting 2/3 of a team of very capable opponents alone. This isn’t just limited to the p52 either.

Even in the p39, I can have matches where I clean up 7 -8 kills in a match and I still lose. why? Cause my ammo is limited and by the Time I rearm, the rest of the enemy team is sitting at alt near the airfield, waiting. Or the bomber disappear somewhere and I can’t find them fast enough, cause again I’m alone and have to be very cautiously if I don’t want to be ambushed.

Of course I could rush ground targets and hope I don’t get shot down before I earn enough to cover the repairs, but at the point you might as well go play ground RB.

This game is just broken, made so cause gajin is greedy, and nothing is going to change that. If you want to play this game, avoid US faction, it’s an absolute waste currently.

If you have to absolutely play the US, don’t go past BR 3.3 or stick to ground RB.

As for me, I’m done, I’m not starting over with another faction just to have a decent win rate cause gajin doesn’t even bother trying to balance matches anymore cause it makes them more money.

4 Likes
181

What I do is climb to a height not too far from my teammates, fly level to conserve energy and then observe the battlefield.

This way, even if you are in battle, there will be teammates around.

Does anyone have a better way?

183

Pretty good video for american flying.

Some of it is not as applicable for Air RB due to markers and instructor (AOA limit, rudder control, coordination. I tried the Mk Ia in ARB after loving it in ASB and it controls like a boat in ARB), but it tracks with my experience that P-51D does turn nicely if you keep yourself fast.

1 Like
184

Play smart and you will be the only one.
Flying headon against every single target is the meta.
5 people competing to kill the most insignificant target or bomber and ignoring everything else is the meta.
In the early years, people actually gave a shit and tried to play well, those times are looooong gone.

Just smack yourself in the head with a hammer a few times then play some matches, you will be on the same wavelength of the community at that point.

Alternatively play high tier and just spam missiles during your 1 minute lifespan.

Ignorance is bliss as they say, hope this helps.

1 Like
185

The old WT wiki describes quite precisely how to fly the D30 … And this applies universally to all USAF propeller fighters of that time, if they do not have airstart … They are not and never were interceptors, with a rapid, rapid climb to altitude in a short time, in this they are disadvantaged by the size of the game map … they need to climb to altitude …

https://old-wiki.warthunder.com/P-51D-30

The Mustang is such a revolutionary aircraft, compared to earlier USAF fighters, where the main task was a long-range escort fighter, with high performance at high altitudes, where heavy bombers move …

After controlling the sky, it could descend and attack in Boom and Zoom mode …

The Russians and the British ( WWII ) are frontline fighters, moving over the battlefield …

The Germans built their aircraft for air supremacy, until they finally came to the end of the war that they needed an interceptor that could climb quickly and intercept Anglo-American bomber alliances…

And so it would be appropriate to continue to other nations…

For American aircraft you need height and if the superiority of the same US aircraft is in the game, as many of them must climb as possible… !

When the game started, the US air tech tree was called “lawnmowers”…

186

The best point in this video is that you can’t treat a plane like it fits in one box. I flew P-51D-5 recently and got a bunch of decent games. Plane’s bad, but if the enemies are going to make mistakes you go ahead and exploit them.

If you play passive all you give the enemy is time to correct what they’re doing wrong. If I see a gap in the enemy’s deployment i’m going to yolo in there with the P-51D, because I’m not going to get a better opportunity even if I take time to consolidate my energy advantage and blah blah blah.

187

I think one issue you forgot to acocunt for is the energy loss physically turning to re-engage the enemy. Even if you do a chandelle to try and conserve energy you’re still traveling 30-40 kmh slower, and in aircraft like the P-51 or P-47, you need a substantial energy advantage to ‘reset’ the fight in your favor. It’s not hard to reset a fight after separation, but when realistically trying to set the fight where you’re on top, you’re going to have to get separation and there are times where you’re barely outspeeding your opponent, at which point being only 30kmh faster than the opponent is not optimum.