Why is the 76 jumbo at 6.3 br

[Zephoid]

You encounter 110mm or less armor from literally every angle you can engage an ARL. Its like saying the tiger 1H is the best armored tank because there is that one spot around its driver that has 1000mm of armor.

[Unholy_Zero]

Yes that is correct 100mm or less the sides are comparable to the vk the arl being 50mm and the vk 40mm but I personally think the arl is worse because its turret is a gigantic weak spot.
As a German main I think panthers are kind of OP at their br.

[Flak_Dancer]

@Zephoid

check the turret.

Why would you shoot the ufp when you can shoot the 100mm turret.

I dont know but you said this:

@Zephoid

As for the VK 3002, try comparing it to EVERY med tank at its br. Its armor is pretty close to the ARL at 5.3.

[_Universate]

[Unholy_Zero]

Didn’t you already post this? and I said just because you like it doesn’t make it good. I will correct my statement though just because YOU are good with it doesn’t make it good.

[_Universate]

not sure if here or another post.

anyway, i dont see whats wrong with the vehicle, Its very versatile, I cant think of very many things you cant deal with. Sure its not the strongest sniper, but its one mean brawling tank.

[Unholy_Zero]

Its a mean brawling tank at its br… 6.3 or lower. 6.7 it get’s easily sent to Jesus at 6.7 its essentially a light tank no armor weak gun.

[_Universate]

If you said full uptiers are bad since they moved the lightly armored cramped tanks up to 8.0 (leoprads, of40s, bmp1s, obj906 etc etc) id say fair enough. but the only thing that i can think of right now that will give you trouble is an is3 and a jagtiger. otherwise you can deal with eveyrhing else

[Unholy_Zero]

Man you must not play any enemies with a functioning frontal lobes because any tiger 2 or is 2 would easily deal with the low penn no armor jumbo 76. I know I’ve sent a ton of those to their creator in my tiger 2.

Also there needs to be a gap between tanks with stabs and no stabs because playing at like 8.3 with no stabs at 9.3 is a joke.

[_Universate]

Sorry pal if you cant deal with the ktH or is2 im not sure what to tell you

[rainy2000]

@Zephoid

You are actually correct, its not the turret ring, its the lower mantlet thats 100mm. I’m aiming at that area for the shot trap so i always thought it was penning the ring. That being said, the turret ring is still vulnerable to a panther at most ranges.

Shot traps generally are risky, and should rarely be relied upon.
In one instance it works, and in the other it doesn’t:

Yes, you can penetrate the turret ring area with the Panther’s gun. It’s around 160mm, after all.
The problem is mainly around the fact that the Jumbo can usually fire its gun accurately before the Panther can, due to the stabilizer it has.
If the Jumbo 76 didn’t have a stabilizer (and maybe if it only had a 7.5s reload), then I could possibly see it go down to 6.0.

@Zephoid

You choose alaska, but even on alaska you are shooting from B to C a lot (400m+) down the 2 line, down the 6 line

That is true, though a lot of the time you’re going to be shooting people in side-aspects - like I have said previously:

@rainy2000

There should be little to no reason for you to be engaging Panthers from further than those ranges, unless you see their side.

I couldn’t care less about weakspots when considering the side aspect of tanks like the Panther or Tiger. The only issue there is being able to land the shot. 76mm M62 shot definitely has less muzzle velocity than the Panther’s round, but it’s still fairly easy within ~600m from my experience.

@Zephoid

2 of the 3 caps are out of any sort of terrain that would benefit the jumbo.

Well, I’d say you’re mostly correct, but you don’t necessarily have to engage people in those places.
You can stay around B and do fairly well. If you do have push things, you have smoke shells to cover yourself too.

@Zephoid

Not just that, until you get to under 200m i’d say the panther has the advantage due to being able to pen the UFP while the jumbo still has to aim for weak points.

Well, if you just about angle the Jumbo right (which you should be doing), then it’s quite an unreliable shot to take.

You’re better off going for the MG port (which is fairly difficult to do against it while it’s moving and is >200m), or the turret ring (which is also fairly difficult in some situations).

@Zephoid

So yeah, you can cherry pick areas where you are under 200m, but its not hard at all to find scenarios where a panther is just as good or better than a jumbo when you try to pick situations that benefit the jumbo more.

Ok, let me give you other maps then:
How about abandoned town?

Or Sweden?

Or Abandoned Factory?

There’s plenty of maps that have <200m engagements in which they are plentiful.
You just have to learn where to position yourself and where to go next.

I think you can agree that there are more close range maps than long range maps, though.
And for those long range maps, there’s quite often a lot of CQC going on anyways.

@Zephoid

While a stab is a pretty nice advantage, being able to UFP a tank is just about as good. On the move a panther is very stable and if you have to hit small weak points and i have to hit your ufp, i’d take that bet.

I’d agree with this if we were both talking about the M4A3 (76)W and the Panther A, but UFP’ing the Jumbo is much more of an unreliable shot.

@Zephoid

5.9s reload? come on man. What percentage of players do you think are acing and full crew leveling a 6.3 tank?

Plenty of people - especially players who love great vehicles.
Hell, even I do-

And besides, if both were just level 1 crew and basic qualification, how would that make it any better for the Panther?
The Jumbo would have a 7.7s reload, whereas the Panther would have 9.6s.

@Zephoid

your 6s fire rate doesn’t realy matter when fighting over ridges

Sure, and that’s one of the situations where it may be better to be in a Panther than in a Jumbo 76.
I’m not saying the Jumbo 76 is always better, but in most circumstances it generally is.

Plus, if the Jumbo decides to hide its turret ring weakspot, what can the Panther really do other than shoot for the smaller cupola… with a worse reload?
How do you reverse out of a bad situation with only 4km/h reverse speed?

@Zephoid

Not only that, but the ability to one-shot a tank in 1v2 or 2v2 situations is very often the determining factor. Disabling them (especially when you can’t blow the breach or barrel on your first hit) isn’t good enough.

Agreed.
Though you cannot take as many chances with the Panther than you can with the Jumbo.

Not only that, most tanks you face (other than the Panther) cannot survive more than 1 shot against M62.
M62 has much more TNT equivalent than PzGr 39/42 ( 63.7g compared to just 28.9g).
Penetration is nice (meaning you can centre mass tanks - which often makes the 28.9g be enough to kill them), but M62’s better TNT equivalent makes it so that you can indirectly kill all the crew:

@Zephoid

I think this back-and-forth proves my point though. There are a lot of situations where a jumbo is better than a panther. There are a lot of situtations where a panther is better than a jumbo. So why is the jumbo 6.3 and the panthers are 6.0?

Because I’d say most of the time, it’s the Jumbo that is better off.
I mean, we could duel and we could maybe learn something from it - just saying.

@Zephoid

Its armor is pretty close to the ARL at 5.3. ~100mm protection across the whole front with some small 80mm points.

No… not at all.

It’s good at 5.0, but it’s not great. I’d take the KV-85 / M4A1 (76)W over it in most cases.

@Zephoid

FFS the chi-ri at 5.0 has, at best, 75mm protection with multiple 20mm plates. providing weak points.

The Chi-Ri is mediocre - I’ll admit that.
I think the Delat Torn (Swedish 5.0 tank) is generally better than it, and yet it’s the same BR.
I could see the Chi-Ri being fairly balanced at 4.7, but I may be wrong.

@Zephoid

The churchill is nowhere near the maus. The maus can pen nearly every single tank that it sees by point and clicking.

Well, not in the literal sense.
In the sense that it’s hard to balance - like the MAUS.
It can’t be moved down since there’s too many things that cannot pen it easily from the side (if at all) at 3.3:

Against tanks that barely have any armour:

Along with the 5s reload too.

@Zephoid

You are trying to make an argument with a US 75mm vs the church … just use the APCR. literally what its designed for. flat vertical plates. Again, you have to try really hard to make this argument.

Cannot pen the front plate(s) anyways:

With a very small weakspot:

Oh, well would you look at that!

Uh oh… no weakspots!

You have to track and barrel torture it (which let’s be real here, nobody finds this fun or engaging), and then go to the side of it (in which enemy teammates can simply cover it)… etc.

[Unholy_Zero]

… I never said I couldn’t? I probably have never been killed in my tiger… let me fix that I have genuinely almost never been killed by a jumbo 76 ever. Like I have said before just because YOU are good with it doesn’t make it good. It is a hard vehicle to actually use because of its placement between much better armored and gunned tanks.

[Unholy_Zero]

Also jesus dude you spent like an hour on that… I’ll just say I HATE this games Br system it can make vehicles almost useless at some br’s and over powered in others.

[rainy2000]

Decompression is what we really need honestly.
I don’t think the Tiger II H should be only 0.3 BR higher than the Jumbo 76, but I also don’t think the Jumbo 76 should be the same BR as the Tiger E or Panther A/G/F.
The KV-220 could be the same BR as the Jumbo 76, though.
That’s fine by me

[Unholy_Zero]

Not wrong honestly they need to add Barriers instead of just pushing things up until 20.0 like a jumbo(75) should not be fighting tiger 2’s that’s just poor game mechanics. Same with the fact it shouldn’t be fighting the narwhal… for obvious reasons. They also need to say “Hey these have stabs these don’t lets place a barrier right here.” They can just keep pushing things up if they want to…

[rainy2000]

I agree with most of what you said.

But I don’t think we need to segregate STAB vehicles from Non-STAB vehicles.

I think the dynamic between Lorraine 40Ts, or M103s, or Somua SMs, or Magach 5s and Cent Mk.3s, or
FV4202s, or Vickers Mk.1 is fair. But I can understand that it’s quite ridiculous that the unstabilized 7.7s / 8.0s can face well-armoued vehicles with a two-plane stabilizer, darts, and a LRF (I’m especially talking about things like the T-55AM-1 at 8.3-9.0).
That just shows that you need more decompression, and not that we need a barrier between them.
I think it’s fine for the T-55A to face against the Magach 5 (which is unstabilized, but has DM23 at 8.0).
I don’t think it’s fine for the M103 to be facing against laser-rangefinded APFSDS shot from a moving composite armour MBT.

[Unholy_Zero]

Im saying a broad statement you can say 8.0 | 8.3 or what ever but there are obviously areas that shouldn’t fight each other ever. Extensive decompression seems to be the easiest. 6.3 I think should never fight 6.7 the jumbo 76, t25 and jagdpanther all suffer from being below a br they can’t handle and above a br they can easily dominate.

[rainy2000]

idk man, most of the things are unbalanced by maybe 0.3 or 0.7.
I can’t say that the Tiger II H (6.7) is a whole 1.3 BR better than any 6.3 vehicle. It’s more like around 0.7 BR better.

I can’t really say the same for 6.0/5.7s against 6.3s.
I think it makes sense that the Jagdpanther is 0.7 BR higher than the M4A3 (76)W, and that the Panther is 0.3 BR higher than the Jumbo 76.

I just think the difference in capabilities of 6.3 to (a lot of) 6.7 vehicles is much greater than the difference between capabilities of 6.0 vehicles to (a lot of) 6.3 vehicles, and so on in the 5.0-6.3 range.
So the only problem is the compression around 6.0-7.0, and the compression of 7.3-8.7.

[PercussionCap]

@Zephoid

As for the VK 3002, try comparing it to EVERY med tank at its br. Its armor is pretty close to the ARL at 5.3. ~100mm protection across the whole front with some small 80mm points. FFS the chi-ri at 5.0

The Chi-Ri does not belong at 5.0 to begin with.

[EddieVanHalo]

I think the USA could do with the Jumbo 76 at 6BR .Its in no mans land at 6,3 like the M18 is in no mans land at 6 with rest of the team at 5.7