That’s not really an issue. There’s mach 0.8-0.9 capable 8.0s, and it’s not like we have to worry about the F-104 outturning everything either.
Vehicle is OP
Playerbase is outraged
YouTubers make sensationalized videos “vehicle is OVERPOWERED!!!” because it gets views
Masses of players who’ve never played the vehicle in question believe it’s OP
Vehicle over the years receives multiple nerfs and/or BR increases
Player masses, who still have never played the vehicle, continue to believe it’s OP
Only the most experienced and skilled players of that vehicle continue to play it post-nerf
Player masses opinion is reinforced by confirmation bias when facing the vehicle, even if its performance in battle is objectively unremarkable
If anyone complains about the vehicle’s post-nerf performance, it’s a skill issue because obviously everyone knows the vehicle is OP, remember all those videos from 3 years ago?
Bonus points if the vehicle is Russian or German because everyone knows those trees are OP and biased, so say the American and Brit mains
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No, it is an issue because of transonic drag.
Even a 7.0 jet won’t have much difficulty getting above M0.8 in a shallow dive but the closer you get to the speed of sound, air becomes less compressible and drag goes up tremendously. A MiG-15 or G.91 cannot break the sound barrier at all. Sabres can but only in aggressive dives, and not for very long. Acceleration also falls off a cliff just below the sound barrier.
Meanwhile the 104 is supersonic in level flight, at any practical altitude, and even in shallow climbs. There is nothing subsonics can do against a single well-played 104 short of waiting for it to run out of fuel and shooting it on the runway, because even if you dodge perfectly and are right back on him, he’s already outrunning your bullets.
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And this is a key component of the BR issue here. The F-104A/C sit at a BR where many opponents they face are still reliant on guns, or if they have missiles they’re AIM-9Bs or copies. These missiles require sitting directly behind the enemy and have very limited delta-V, offering an extremely limited NEZ if the target is much faster then the launching aircraft.
Other fast aircraft at higher BRs, like the other F-104s, can be intercepted by slower aircraft equipped with medium-range radar missiles that can engage from all angles. They don’t have the option of simply outrunning all pursuers like the F-104A does (especially if it was 9.0!), except by avoiding the battle entirely.
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Compression problem, F-104A/C should’ve be stay for 9.7BR long decades ago
See counterparts like Su-7B or Lightning F.6
F-104A/C should’ve stay 9.7BR compared to other supersonic bricks
Problem is, Gaijin keeps superior supersonic jets compared to F-104A/C remaining in 9.7BR. MiG-21S(Prem with new engine) or T-2 and such. Which makes it looks like F-104A/C shouldn’t ever be 9.7BR.
We know what happened when Gaijin sent Su-7 down to 9.0BR because ‘It acts like F-104 but doesn’t have missiles’
I never knew that sending the fastest 9.3BR jet into 9.0 and making it uncatchable is the definition of ‘Balanced’. :/
Same as literally almost every 9.3BR supersonic jet does.
Same as literally almost every 9.3BR supersonic jet does.
Except Su-7B, which doesn’t have a missile at all.
Calling the M61A1 a bad gun… seems it is one of the most ridiculous takes even I’ve seen today.
If the M61A1 is a bad gun, why did Congress pay taxpayers’ money to buy M61A1?
M61A1 fits the F-104’s role as a supersonic interceptor; it cannot dogfight, so it sprays lead wall onto the enemy target before disengaging.
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It’s far more balanced than your idea of “balanced,” that being the F-104 be both outturned and outran by every plane it faces.
Yeah, and they mostly all suck aswell.
Because the HE shells it fire actually deal more damaged than an AP .50cal irl.
I prefer guns that damage their targets over guns that deliver 100 "hit"s per second.
How so? Do you really believe that making a supersonic interceptor literally untouchable in downtier is “Balanced”??
I never knew subsonic jets such as Javelin or Venom could ‘OUTRUN’ a supersonic interceptor such as F-104. /s
or if we take someone’s offer that ‘F-104A should be 9.0 at least’ in earlier on this topic, well, then F-104A could face Vampire FB.5 or F-86A-5.
Then it is fine to at least keep F-104A/C on 9.3BR as literally almost every 9.3BR supersonic jet
or keeping F-104C on 9.7 BR if decompression is held and somehow F-4C becomes 10.3 while T-2 becomes 10.0 and such.
1- Well, historically, F-104 was an interceptor, so M61A1 fitted perfectly for their role
2- If I can swap my 30mm ADEN on Lightning to M61A1, I would.
It is your preference that you dislike the M61A1, but just don’t undersell it.
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It’s not untouchable. If you want to get better at countering F-104s, the first step is realizing they’re easily counterable.
0 reading comprehension.
Or just move it to 9.0 where it will be slightly more playable.
F-4C would not be among the first to be raised. The T-2 should arguable be 10.0 or 10.3 as it stands right now before decompression.
I disagree with that fully. ADENs on the AV-8C and Hunter F.58 are far more usable than the M61.
Buddy in christ one cannon have 1000m/s velocity and the other has 200m/s less how are we making this take in the big 26
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literally outruns many supersonics at or higher than its own BR as long as you have any degree of altitude and don’t drop below 600 IAS (something you shouldn’t be doing in 90% of supersonics at this BR anyways)
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It is untouchable in downtier because
Subsonic jets in 8BR radius don’t have something to counter a supersonic interceptor unless they blunder. (somehow F-104 wants to do turnfight and such)
They cannot catch them with a gun because opponents are vastly superior in speed, being outrun.
And they don’t have fine missiles, which give an extra chance when enemy supersonic jets failed to shoot them down and are overrun.
Just like Bf109 or Mustang vs Zero but worse. If supersonic jets play correctly, keep maintaining speed… then the chance of Subsonic jets touching F-104 or Lightning is narrow.
Yes, theoretically F-104A/C isn’t untouchable, but you are just ignoring that speed is one of the advantages, because you want to bias your silly F-104 down to a clueless level.
Seriously?
You are the one who said ‘BOTH OUTTURNED AND OUTRAN’
it is more of 0 writing comprehension than 0 reading comprehension, you should ve said like
“either being outturned or outran by every plane it faces.”
because subsonic jets cannot outrun F-104 but outturn them.
I never knew that ‘playable’ means
‘I want to BnZ against Meteor or Vampire which have no chance to fight against F-104A/C and enjoy my free kill.’ /s
If F-104A/C goes down to 9.0BR, it means it can face 8.0BR jets.
We already saw what happened when Su-7B went down to 9.0BR even though Su-7 is worse than F-104 in some aspects, and you want to see American version of that nightmare, right?
with decompression context, I didn’t said F-4C should be first to be raised, but it needs to be raised eventually along with other current 10BR jets.
to make 9BR places wider gap, I don’t think you know what decompression is.
Okay, keep your ADEN on AV-8C, I will swap mine if I can have chance.
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wdym, it’s so fair when my barely mach .8 plane have to fight the mach 2 capable lawn dart /s
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Yeah, it is so fair and balanced /s
because if Lawn Dart decided to turnfight, then Vampire could gun F-104 down,
Vampire to 9.0 when
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Meteor has better turn rate than Typhoon FGR.4, I suggest we increase Meteor BR to 14.3 /s
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Because one actually does damage. You can always just pulled more lead if the muzzle velocity is slightly slower, but you can’t make a peashooter deal more damage.
You have never played the F-104. Statshark is not representative of ingame performance. It can theoretically achieve a higher top speed than most other planes, however its energy retention is very (and ahistorically) overnerfed.
It is not.
They do, it’s called shooting it.
If subsonic jets play correctly then they too are untouchable to an F-104.
Sorry, but you personally struggling to fight a bad plane does not make me biased.
You can’t make any meaningful arguments without strawman arguments. You have provided no value to this discussion.
Actually, I was wrong, you’re correct. F-104 should be exclusively paired against planes like the MiG-25 and F-4J.
20mm HEI-T will blow people up, and it fires at 4000rpm.
I have played against the F-104s and su-7s when they were 9.0. You legit cannot do anything to them unless they screw up. The only way to catch an F-104 is for them to turn near you, meaning you won’t be catching them if they’re space climbing.
No supersonic at or below 10.7 can catch an F-104 in a straight line. Most F-104s however are zombers that are often easily intercepted by another diving supersonic with aim-9bs. If said F-104 were to, idk, simply zoom at 9km alt, what exactly are you going to do? Your missiles won’t catch it. Your plane also won’t.
You struggling to play arb sure does show where your biases lie
Strawman? You’re free to try to catch an F-104 in any subsonic that doesn’t have missile. You can call me wrong when you manage to shoot one down without them hugely blundering.
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And in return everything from 8.0-9.3 becomes borderline unplayable
Perhaps even funnier is that it would then be able to see the R2Y2 as well.
Actually much worse, a Zero can always dive to get near or above any other prop’s top speed. So to catch them, you “just” need to be above and with enough altitude between you to gain enough speed. This is pretty much impossible to do against a 104 in any subsonic.
Why would T-2 be even higher than F-1, which at 10.0 already sucks since the Crusader exists?
F-106:
(it should be 9.7)
My overall thoughts on the F-104A/C is that they should remain at their current BRs until decompression is done that moves them up. They are decent planes, but several 9.3 and 9.7 aircraft are at minimum equivalent (T-2, Ayit, F-106, Av-8s), and the 10.3 Mig-21s/Drakens/10.7 J-7D make moving the bulk of 9.3s to 9.7 a non starter).
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