Why complain about the Pantsir instead of solving the core issue with CAS and game design?

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
1

Maybe there’s something I’m missing. But I’m constantly seeing players (especially CAS mains) complain about the new Pantsir but never hear a peep about any other anti-air in the game. As quick as the new SAM systems rose they pretty much fell off. With the very few trying to make it seem like the BUK still has some special place against a pilot who isn’t brain dead.

Why are we blaming a vehicle that effectively does not change how the game is played, only challenging the engagment time of a seasoned pilot in a fast-paced game.

Why are we not addressing the issue of how game design heavily affects the preformance of long range sams, especially map design.

Why are we not addressing helicopters, that can greatly overwhelm SAM systems. I don’t care who you think is on top. The AH-64s are just as guilty of this with over 16IR munitions versus 8 LMURS of the Mi-28, both types being extremely effective. The AH-64s more so being able to greatly overwhelm almost any Anti-Air system in the game. Along with how DIRCM greatly made them even harder to deal with. At this rate, I don’t see a balance for helicopters. I see it as a high risk-high reward vehicle, where you give them just a few-inches they can take more than a mile.

Being able to be spawned with a quick 3-4 kills most times and soon you see them after 6-10 minutes of a match starting.

And this isn’t equating if there’s more than 1 air asset up at a time. I’m sure nobody is oblivious to what happens the second there’s more than 1 air-asset up, all at different angles, firing newly added HARMS, AGMs, setting points on spawns to sling bombs from the get-go since there isn’t really any place for most SAMs to go, being restricted to spawn areas. Simply the definition of overwhelming.

Advocating for the removal of the Pantsir doesn’t solve anything, it will simply just allow CAS to keep doing what they’ve always been doing.

Why did we need HARMS? I hear a lot of people asking for HARMS mainly was because of the Pantsir, not even considering how it will affect other vehicles. But since Nuclear Thunder is here, I don’t see the point in asking this question.

Why do we have suggestions for Electronic Warfare being passed.

Everything about Ground RB and the role CAS plays in it is about getting in and out fast. There’s nothing methodical about it at all. People want to bring up realism, while planes in RB almost have all of that thrown out the window when it comes to G-limits and the working of weapons. As fast as a Pantsir can pull the trigger once you hit LOS is about the same time it takes for a seasoned pilot to fire at a few tanks and pull for cover, there’s virtually no delay in anything.

The 1-Man Army
Nuclear Thunder did a great job of showing how much people want to be a 1 Man Army, rather than use teamwork, which is the entire point of SEAD. The same mindset is applied to pilots in Ground RB.

As much as I’ve messed with the Pantsir, I generally haven’t seen any change in how CAS is played, besides having to pay a lot more attention.

It’s like it’s a power struggle that at the very top is comparing CAS vs CAS , (Kh-38 vs. Mavericks) obligiating for more weaponry while barely taking into consideration SAMs. So much so that the standard is comparing the Pantsir against your average nations CAS. Everyone elses SAM platforms being a complete afterthought.

What direction are we taking, are we going to keep packing modern weaponry into small maps, with soon to be EW? I understand that the dev have been implenting little stuff here and there in Nuclear Thunder when it comes to dealing with SAMS and how they interact with the player and how they defend themselves that make complete sense in that gamemode, but would serve absolutely no purpose in Ground RB and simply serve too make it easier for CAS to operate.

Any constructive feedback that isn’t riding on the lines of Russian bias would be appreciated. Because screaming Russian Bias until the days end isn’t going to fix core game issues.

4 Likes
2

Because they haven’t.

Its been over a year, and their only “solution” was adding (to no ones surprise) to the soviets the best top tier SACLOS SAM that conveniently doesnt care about the heli issues as a result.

and its a pattern that keeps repeating itself.

Lets not forget that the Pantsir S1 was the ONLY truly effective top tier SAM for 3 years. The only one capable of intercepting weapons reliably, and then, and this is the best part, proceeded to give the soviets the best CAS weapon, BEFORE adding an equal to the Pantsir S1, and it still largely is to this day.

(This is a bit off topic, but seriously, go read the Tornado GR4 Dev Blog post about all the reasons why FnF Brimstones couldnt be added and then, whilst reading it, think about the fact that this is the same update that added the Su-34 with 6x KH-38MTs and was 5 months before anyone got anything capable of doing anything about it. With the Pantsir S1 being the only AA that might have stood a chance at fighting an Su-34)

Its too strong to be 12.7. It should be 13.0. Maybe higher, like 13.3. There is little bar the abolute top tier that can even stand a chance against it.

And the Pantsir S1 shouldnt be 12.0, that is still under BRed too.

To be brutally honest, they could have not added either the Buk or the Pantsir SM-SV the soviets would still have been fine at top tier.

Because, shock horror, CAS actually needed buffs in the CAS vs SPAA fight. Though they have denied ARM on aircraft that would have benefitted from it the most. But they are good way to buff aircraft in a specific way. Should have also been quite a fun gameplay element in ARB and ASB too, but they failed miserably to actually do anything with either gamemode.

Maybe because the game consists of more than just GRB?

And heck, you do know that some tanks would also get ECM?

11 Likes
3

It’s both an SPAA AND CAS problem, I had never played Top Tier until I squadron researched the M1A1 AIM, and it is just horrible. Like, this is supposed to be the “Special” club of War Thunder, and yet it’s just a mosh pit of over powered stuff fighting other OP stuff killing regular stuff. What I’ve noticed is that within seconds of spawning, Panstirs will have missiles launched that can’t be notched, can’t be counter-measured, and can’t be multipathed. On the contrary, helis will just peak up, launch 2-3 missiles at an unassuming target, drop back down, and get a kill. Then you have aircraft, which also destroy tanks within seconds of spawning. It feels to me that all of you guys are so divided on what in specific is wrong with the game, that you don’t realize EVERYTHING is wrong with the game.

4 Likes
4

Sorry I haven’t been clear that No One’s Flying at Half of the BRs

Oh and at the rest of the BRs we still see Tornado gr4 etc xDDD

Will post more.

And I love ADATS. bit off topic but these SPAAs are good if not too good.

THE helicopters. Not Helicopters as a category.

Applies to both A2G and SPAAs. Maybe worse for the spawn sitters.

Main reason being the high SP and lack of rewards for teamwork. Why help others for nothing anyways.

edit, plus the lack of efficient comms and trust. ppl do coop with fwends but never the random team

1 Like
5

You’re missing the part where USSR already had competitive SPAA with the Pantsir S1 + Buk, and no other nation will get close to the SV-SM

It’s hard to avoid it when this cycle of powercreep was entirely brought on by the Su-25SM3/Kh-38 and it’s completely out of control

wdym you don’t take 1950s Jets against 70’s radar guided SPAA and MANPAD SAMs?

1 Like
6

Because its blatantly better than all of those other AAs?

Because more than one tech tree has access to helicopters with that quality.

2 Likes
7

All of this discourse keeps proving that CAS is unhealthy for the game if you ask me… Tho, I’m new to top tier… barely 100 mayches truly, i don’t really see that much CAS to be honest… will my opinion change has i play… most likely, but sincerely CAS is way, way wirse at lower tier… there the SPAAs cannot do anything against a plane… and the Pantsir over performing? Good, let CAS main suffer… their gameplay loop could use a shake up

3 Likes
8

you can spawn them with 2

2 kills…
I’ve gotten the AH-64E with 1 kill and a cap (sometimes just a cap and an assist)

Oh yeah, Smin stated all top tier nations (besides Sweden) will get a F&F and MITL capabilities next update

enjoy

5 Likes
9

The SM-SV is so much better compared to any other AA it’s insane
What does it have over other AAs?

  1. Guns - it can defend itself from tanks
  2. Highest missile capacity
    2.1 Best munition interceptor as a result
  3. Best SAM missile in the game - Mach 5 without proxy, means it can engage you through trees + great missile for intercepting munitions as secondary
  4. Track radar is invisible to ARMs
  5. IRST
  6. Smoke shells
  7. Great mobility + Hydro suspension

What do other SAMs have over it?
Uh,
They only need LOS once to shoot at you
cool

5 Likes
10

Holy truth nuke

1 Like
11

I mean I guess it does keep CAS at a minimum.

12

the most obvious thing is that it has way more ammo than any of the sams, is more mobile and has back up cannons to defend itself from close range planes or even any tank.
if every nation had something like this there would probably be less of an issue (at the very least from the actual ground players) ive also seen cas mains complain about roof mounted machine guns sooo…

13

The only SPAA that gets anywhere remotely close to the Pantsir SM SV in terms of anti munition capabilities is the CS/SA5 with its AHEAD + AESA combo, the rest (apart from Pantsir S1) can’t even get close to matching its performance

2 Likes
14

I know the game consists of more than just GRB, but features that get added to the game usually creep their way into all gamemodes in some way or fashion, so being woefully oblivious isn’t an option here. (not saying you are) but if a new mechanic is being added. Like ARMS being introduced in Nuclear Thunder, than made their way into normal battles.

I don’t know if you played much Squadron Battles, but that’s a great testing ground for individual vehicle performance against people who actually know what they’re doing. I’ll tell you what, the SM-SV against 2 pilots that are coordinated can very easily take it out, without a doubt. Most of the vehicles performance comes from uncoordinated attacks or 1 on 1 engagments. and 1 on 1 engagment in an IRIST for example is way different than one in a Pantsir if that isn’t obvious.

Under br’d? I barely consider it too be as I’ve watched it struggle as CAS got more things to use. You’ve already got people bringing rockets to predetonate the S-1s missles mid-air because… what? Helicopter pilots around that their that drain all your interceptors and ammo after 1 interaction, not to mention if they manage to detonate the missile because they fired something last minute, or people just outrolling the missile super easily. People that know what they are doing don’t have much issue fighting an S-1.

Which I completely understand, but it WILL and has undermined certain vehicles, which is the point I’m making. People complaining about KH-31s… so gaijin is going to give America a new AGM-88 sooner or later. Surprise, surprise, nato countries fight nato countries in ground RB.

15

Tanks sure. But focusing on air to air purely, having guns wards off fighters on maps that allow most missles to be disregarded with multipathing. So trying to approach with a gun run provides another layer of defense that is quite easily abused since closing the gap isn’t that hard with how most maps are designed in the game.

Yep. If you know what map you’re on and know for a fact the SAMs likely can’t move anywhere, just set a mark on your map, load up with dumb bombs and just let them fly. I’ve seen this done hundreds of times without aircraft showing themselves.

No surprise there, it becomes unreactable for most SAMS when you close the distance and spread them with munitions, or just waste all their ammo from range.

K- band radar, shouldn’t be a surprise. Not that it matters because it’s only on when it’s actively tracking a target and usually ARMS are fired from long range out of sight, so this virtually is a non-issue.

I believe other SACLOS vehicles also have IRST…
Smoke is smoke.

When you’re not mobile and stay in one place, it becomes much easier for CAS pilots to CAS essentially when they close the gap, which they often do quite succesffully.

16

Well when it comes to anti-air, people seem to ver conveniently forget Russia took a very different approach. And apparanately because they took a different approach it’s supposed to be worse.

When it comes to EW for example, the only nation I hear mentioned when it comes to it the U.S, every single time, because it’s supposed to be the… .“ultimate counter” or something like that, as if Russia doesn’t also have EW? At this point, saying “if every had nation X” is pointless because when it comes to certain vehicles and prioirities, it varies between nations, it will almost never be the same.

The CS/SA5 isn’t all that great if I’m being honest, maybe good for it’s BR, but at top tier, absolutely not.

It does but only by a small margin, seeing how it’s not that hard for planes to be up or helicopters in less than 6~7 minutes of the match starting. And if that’s enough too where a pilot can ethier james strat to snag kills with GBUS or KH-38s and wipe out a good majority of the team, to where you have ground players complaining about CAS, then there’s more too the problem.

I understand the point of Kh-38s being the bane of Ground for a long time, but it’s not enough to overshadow other CAS platforms abilities and there approach, they can be just as effective. Essentially it’s just comparing what’s the easisest and most effective weapon on a CAS platform is, that just so happens to be Russian. Using that to undermine the addition of a more powerful SPAA they got that actually challenges CAS too make it seem that others nations CAS platforms aren’t effective is a very odd approach. Considering that as of now, there effectively is no more effective SAM systems that can be added that would make a difference ultimately.

In the grand scheme of things, a Patriot battery isn’t going to change anything if the target is already within ~20kms, behind terrain/multipathing. There is no equivalent to be added, there’s really nothing to add that would change anything significantley for other nations.

If CAS is going to continue to have arcadish times to engage, third person to use for spotting, all tied with being able to pull well over 9gs, then how fast they can engage has to be slowed down tremndiousley.

If you want these newer SAM systems to be effective and not just be a waste of space and huge targets, maps absolutely have to be bigger or these SAMS have to be put in a position where there won’t just be a “slight inconvenience” most times.

Here’s another great example. BukM3 in Ground RB is mediocore at best. Most maps don’t cater too it, so it’s essentially a big target for a tank to see, or another target for Air to overwhelm or just close the gap on with no consequence.

But all of a sudden in Nuclear Escalation, it’s so good that it had to be removed? And that’s just not cracked AI, it’s essentially because of how the vehicle was designed and the field that gamemode allows it to operate in.

2 Likes
17

multipathing?
It shoots SACLOS missiles with no proxy timer
It doesn’t give two shits about multipath

But your point is still fair

Smoke which no other SAMs at that br have (besides FlaRakRad which has a whole other set of downsides)
allows you to be temporarily immune to anything fired at you bar GNSS munitions or ARMs

1 Like
18

Fox-3 Buk was then replaced by a Fox-1 SAM
Basically a buff since you can’t tell how far away the missile is from your aircraft anymore tbh

19

Russian AA is just built different from how NATO does it and it’s quite effective. A lot of the older systems are still highly regarded and considered quite dangerous. I really don’t know how else to sugarcoat it.

Buk doesn’t care about multipathing because the tracking director keeps accurate position of the aircraft that’s within LOS at all times.

20

I might’ve mixed somethin gup, but I was talking about other nations SPAA that fall victim to multipathing.