In addition, the Wiesel at least has the APDS, which against light and medium vehicles with little lateral armor has possibilities.
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Yep, the APDS improves its situation a little. The APDS is very much underperforming though, IIRC I had seen a penetration chart a while ago and its current 66mm@10m of penetration were what the real thing got at 1000m.
Even if that source was wrong, 66mm of penetration is quite low for the muzzle energy it has.
And of course, it has very good 3rd gen thermals.
Repair costs are low as well, its aligned with your survivability. Same for me with EBR. Its fine.
Yes, I know that the APDS also does not have its correct and realistic penetration. This is what happens when instead of using data, they create a poor penetration calculator, which really does not seem bad to me since this way you make the penetration calculations easier But at least make a calculation taking into account more variables of the projectiles so that even if it is not correct at least it is as close as possible to reality.
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Spawn point costs aren’t. In a match that’s a very important factor to consider - you’re paying as much in spawn points as another vehicle for worse performance.
The calculator itself isn’t the issue, its that gaijin hates diverging from what it says even when primary sources say the formula is wrong.
If the calculator says the US 90mm can’t pen a Panther UFP, but real life testing does, they should adjust it to fit reality.
Actually the problem is mainly in the capless AP ammunition and the APCR, for example the problem with the AP is that when hitting an inclined armor the tip of this projectile breaks and makes it pierce better, that’s why the Americans after WW2 They left out the APCBC and used APBC. In the case of the APCR, I am not really clear about what variable gaijin has omitted so that the penetrations are not correct. In the case of the APDS of the Marder A3, I am not clear either, the same the calculator for very small caliber APDS does not work well.
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your the one who said stuff like the ratel has a better gun. not me.
I am sure you have the mental strength to get over it and use the vehicle well, once you stop moaning.
Bmp has 4 atgm’s, you have to start with wasd aiming, the milan has more pen and is only 38m/s slower than the bmp missile.
Not to mention it also has a laser rangefinder.
Maybe you should support team mates more with it rather than expecting to be mr hotshot.
It is an ifv/ support vehicle so use it like one, like other little vehicles, it works absolutely fine when engaging vehicles of similar capabilities, light vicks etc and frankly i find the Milan to be a great atgm, no issues here, can mess up pretty much anything.
All i can agree on is they should both be 7.7 unless the 8.0 one has an extra something i am not aware of.
Also, maybe try playing the first Type 87 RCV for some perspective then tell me how bad you have it in the marder by comparison.
BMP1 has an autoloaded 73mm gun firing HEAT-FS with 300mm of pen on a reasonably fast reload. Unlike the Marder, once it is out of ATGMs it can still do damage to pretty much anything it meets.
This “little vehicle” is almost as tall as a T29.
You’ve clearly never used a TOW or HOT.
Support them with WHAT exactly? The autocannon that can’t pen anything, even from the side, except a few of the lightly armored early MBTs and light tanks? The armor that won’t stop anything above a .50cal? The ATGMs that I only have 4 of, and often won’t even kill the target? The scouting that everyone ignores because they’re blind?
Hell, if I was in the BMP1 you mentioned I could just SHOOT THEM with my MAIN GUN that DOES DAMAGE. Crazy concept, I know.
Two things here. First, I did and it sucked, partly because RCV driving performance is way lower than it should be, and partly because it suffers from many of the Marder’s issues - too big and has insufficient firepower against most things it meets.
Second, saying “X vehicle isn’t bad because Y vehicle is worse” isn’t a great argument. Both of them SUCK.
The RCV(P) is literally a worse Wiesel 1A4 as far as its primary role - scouting - is concerned. It’s faster, but with much worse P/W ratio. It’s much bigger. It lacks thermals and an LRF. It has a horrible reverse speed.
Having a stabilizer doesn’t do much when you won’t even tickle most of the things you meet.
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Just got out of this match with the type 87 RCV (only 3 mods unlocked)
0 deaths.
I did not engage mediums or heavies, in fact, actively avoided them.
I scouted for the team and capped points and killed light vehicles.
This was at 8.3.
Gains are mediocre due to i dont buy premium account, (Gaijin dont deserve my monies)
RCV is 7.7
Marder has ATGM, RCV only has rh202 with same ammo.
Marder has faster turret rotation.
Marder has laser rangefinder.
Marder has more armour.
Marder has better gun depression.
The marder is more than capable and i know you are more than capable.
Anyone can have an alright game in any vehicle. I’ve had very good games in the Marder - that doesn’t make it on par with other vehicles and the time I spent playing it made that obvious.
Had you played something else, your impact in the battle would have been much more significant.
Like the DF105 at 8.0, right at the same BR as the 1A3 and only one step up from the RCV(P).
As for japan, the M47 and ST-A3 are both extremely capable and are both right there, with guns that can actually hurt things.
None are scouts, but all are in this BR region, all can influence the game much more than a car with a 20mm. All can support their team much better because they can seriously damage and kill anything they meet.
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well i dont know what to tell ya mate.
Your mentality and thought process seems to say that if it is a vehicle that YOU use, you expect it to be easy mode and if it isnt - then there is something wrong.
Go play a diff game where they have a massive selection of vehicles that are totally identical.
Or maybe play a game that disregards everyone apart from you and gives you the easiest time regardless what vehicle you use.
It seems that your ego will not allow you play a vehicle without having every advantage possible over its contemporaries.
In the meantime i will continue to use any given vehicle to good effect without expecting it to have imaginary parameters to compensate for my lack of integrity and prowess.
Victim mentality seems to be spreading to even warthunder these days.
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Marder 1A3s “contemporaries” are M3, Warrior & BMP-2 which are what… 0.3 above it? And all 3 have much more effective firepower, more ATGMs (par the BMP-2), 2 of them have got stabilisers, 2 of them have the same generation of thermals, 1 of them has better armour. Marder’s only better than them in terms of reverse speed, gun depression and gun handling.
I don’t think the Marder itself needs to be down BR’d, but man, it could do with an APDS fix & like 2 additional missiles.
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Thing is, it never had more than 4 missile.
We cant just start making stuff up because it is a bit more difficult to use than other vehicles.
I think both marders should be 7.7 and that works fine.
As for the APDS - well i am no ordnance expert so i dont know what the specs should be realistically.
But i can say that it works fine against similar vehicles, against mediums or heavies? no, but that is to be expected, it is just a 20mm after all. (and with a nice fire rate i may add)
One thing to consider when it comes to APDS = its not all about the pen values that dictate it’s effectiveness, APDS has a higher velocity, that in itself is a nice advantage to have and makes engagements much easier rather than using standard ap or hefi.
4 atgms = 4 tank kills.
Autocannon for light vicks.
support, scout, cap, help repair and shoot heli’s. All of which it does well.
All of these vehicles are TANKS. Designed with fighting other armored vehicles in mind. Comparing the 105mm, 90mm, and 105mm cannons of those vehicles to a 20mm is absolutely dumb. The Marders aren’t tanks, so of course they don’t work like tanks. 20mm guns don’t have the mass to make them effective in anti-armor roles, especially with smaller and lighter sub caliber rounds. No matter what they do, the Marder will NEVER be as successful as vehicles at it’s BR because of what it was designed for. Even the M3 Bradley at 8.3 with a 25mm cannon using APDS only gets 80mm of pen using a .13kg projectile moving at around 200m/s faster than the Marder’s 20mm. The gun on these IFVs aren’t going to be close to even a 30mm gun in terms of performance against armor, and they shouldn’t be. Gaijin can’t change what the Marders were designed to do, they just added the vehicle into the game. I think the 1A3 is the 2nd highest BR vehicle with a 20mm main armament, only lower then the Machbet.
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Gotta say, I’m suprised I’m not seeing more respect given to the Marder’s SPAA capability. The Marders have lightening quick turrets, both horizontally and vertically, and unlike the Wiesel it can point up almost vertically. It is very useful against rocket rush helicopters, and is totally usable against planes doing dumb bomb strikes near your position. Planes are generally too quick for you to engage them outside a couple hundred meters, but if you see one lining up to drop bombs on some nearby friendlies, it’s not hard to intercept that path.
Accordingly, I usually spawn Marders as a late spawn. Not only are you more likely to see aircraft which you can engage, but you also see more lightly armored enemy vehicles, and even some SPAA running around, which your 20mm can easily deal with. I basically play it as a support SPAA with an ATGM secondary. Stick close to some friendlies, scout, track/barrel distracted enemies, shut down lightly armored flankers yourself, protect from diving planes and throw your 4 ATGMs when you get the oppertunity. They aren’t incredible IFVs, but they do their job well enough IMO.
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Amen.
The Marder is still only effective against 40% (20% Light vehicles and 20% planes) of the enemies.
BMP1 finishes 80% off and does not even need ATGM, cause the main cannon is ridiculously accurate.
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The BMP-1’s 73mm is awful. Certainly not accurate with anaemic damage, balanced out with high pen and good ROF.
The Marder and BMP-1 seem rather balanced in comparison, each with strengths and weaknesses.
The Marders are very survivable and having an autocannon that can easily break barrels they are a nightmare to deal with in 6.7-7.0 vehicles already. The front engine on IFVs is one of their biggest strengths.
That’s the popular misconception, the Marder can store up to 4 missiles on the inside… while having one at the ready at all times, so it should be 1 ready for use + 4 spares.
I think both marders should be 7.7 and that works fine.
Marder 1A3s armour is a bit better, and I do generally agree it should be 7.7, but for that, 1A1- should be moved down to 7.3 - they aren’t the same in terms of potential, even if the gap is rather small.
4 atgms = 4 tank kills.
That’s rather optimistic, in most of my 1A3 games, those 4 missiles usually yield me 1 or 2 kills at best if I don’t get blown up beforehand - their damage output quite frankly isn’t great, and after SACLOS changes you can no longer use them with the utmost of precisions, so at long ranges (especially due to Marder’s optic low magnification), hitting stuff is uber hard.
Marders only value lays in it being somewhat capable as an anti-heli and anti-IFV (mostly BMPs though, since Western ones are better armoured against autocannons below the 30mm calibre), and even there it’s limited due to low penetration & the lack of a stabiliser.
Sure, those IFVs aren’t as bad as some make them out to be, but they’re bad enough that the gap between them and stuff like BMP-2, M3 & Warrior should be larger than just 0.3 BR, in case of the 1A1- that doesn’t even get APDS, the BR gap should ideally be 1.0 - 1.3, for the 1A3 it can be 0.7 probably.
Right now, I personally don’t see a point in using either the 1A1- or the 1A3 when Wiesel 1A4 exists, which is significantly smaller, much faster and has the same autocannon whilst sporting 3rd generation thermals, and if Gaijin ever adds the 1A4 mod with HOT missile launcher, what will be the reason for Marders even being in the TT other than prolonging the grind…?
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