Why are swedish Leopards still better than German ones?

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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90

I’m not gonna entertain your poor attempt at trying to make me commit to a strawman.

It’s me saying if we simply discuss all of the other factors, they’re equal, but if we discuss armor they aren’t as I said from the start .

This makes zero hecking sense. There is more to 122s than just “muh armor” like, idk, spall liners? Do they just cease to exist when you have to make an argument? Last I checked, 122s have them all over the crew compartment, every other Leopard 2 that isn’t a 2A7 lacks them in the hull, on top of not having MEXAS-H armor. You pretending that we can simply ‘forget’ what makes 122s into the tanks they are just for the sake of creating a narrative in which they aren’t as good as they actually are (in your opinion, where you have a K/D of 1.2 in both 122B and 122A, while going negative in pretty much every single of your other high tier vehicles, includinng other Leopard 2 variant), is disingenous down to its very core and should be treated as nothing more than a bad joke.

You can rant all you want, but the moment your argument begins with “if we get rid of the armor, then they’re just as good as the 2A5 & 2A6”, that’s the moment where you become the whole circus… oh wait you already have done that.

91

literaly other leopards, the abrams and so on lol

i can say as well take away the 2a7s armor and its just a slightly better 2a6, where is the sense there

92

103s suffer from hull-aiming, don’t they?

You could have a K/D of 3.0 and I’d still say they’re bad, simply cus Gaijin can’t be arsed to fix them, but about you, as a player, having a positive K/D in them is as good as it can get, honestly.

93

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;))))))))))))

Under some specific circumstances, every Leopard 2 with the DM53 can also do it:

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94

Yes, that’s why I’m discussing the other features, that are not armor.

Yes, more to a tank than just armor. Glad you finally understand. Isn’t it quite hypocritic discussing that there’s more to a 122 than just armor, while you ignore any attempt at discussing any other feature of the 122? Crazy LMFAO

Oh yes, I apologize for not having several thousands of battles in every leopard I own!

So what’s the real difference, one tank that you never face at 12.0? That thing can penetrate almost any vehicle, now let’s be realistic here. Can an abrams do the same thing? Type 10? Leclerc? T80BVM?

Please, use the tool correctly.

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95

Right, so why are you trying to make the armor of the 122s into a non-argument? Removing it from the equation like you have, isn’t the way to go. Said armor is what makes them into the tanks they are. You compare MBTs by taking all of their strong points and putting them against each other, not by choosing what to compare and what to not compare in order to paint a completely different picture of how the tank’s capabilites and say “if we do this, then they’re not as strong!” (i.e what you’ve done here). You’re honestly a hypocrite, you preach what you don’t even practice.

I could have honestly just called you an idiot for arguing about vehicles you don’t even own (German Leopard 2s) since you have no idea how they perform outside of looking at them in the hangar, yet I’ve given you enough courtesy to present your train of thought, only to be greeted with the worst argumentation ever of how a vehicle’s trait can be ignored.

Oh yes, I apologize for not having several thousands of battles in every leopard I own!

Strawman.

So what’s the real difference, one tank that you never face at 12.0? That thing can penetrate almost any vehicle, now let’s be realistic here. Can an abrams do the same thing? Type 10? Leclerc? T80BVM?

You said to show you something that can perforate the glacis, so I did, and now you’re backpedalling?

Nation mains really never change do they.

Please, use the tool correctly.

I’ve had this image saved on my hard-drive for longer than you’ve been playing this game, anyhow. It really doesn’t seem like you’re willing to give up on your narrative, and it’s not my place to try and forcefully change you mind, no matter how stupid of an idea its holding onto. So, Ima just move on.

96

How many times do I have to say it’s what makes it leagues ahead? Please stop trying with this strawman you’re attempting to create. I never removed it from the equation, simply discussing a whole other equation.

I’m sorry, but 99% of the things you call me a hypocrite over are things I’ve never said, or you taking valuable context out of everything. It’s honestly laughable how hard your trying LMFAO.

psst… I’m being ironic, y’know what that means? ;)

Are you running away once I point out the obvious flaw? I’m not giving up on my narrative unless you show me some real goddamn proof, not a picture where you have fabricated a lie. And you having that picture saved on your hard drive for several years doesn’t change the fact it proves you lied, lol.

Anyways, I agree with you. Argument over, have a good rest of your day/night.

97

I’ve got 460 kills to 340 deaths, it’s one of my few positive KDR’s other than the T-72M1 and Strv 105 for Sweden.

I usually have god like enemies or horrendous friendlies, not to mention ping that keeps my KDR low.

98

tldr, your whole point and argument was useless

99

You never did, until now.

I’m sorry, but 99% of the things you call me a hypocrite over are things I’ve never said

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Mhm, alright Lil’ Hypocrite.

Are you running away once I point out the obvious flaw?

I’m “running away” because it’s no use talking to you, a person who has already made up their mind about the need to argue that we can safely forget 122s armor supremacy in an argument about how capable 122 is compared to normal Leopard 2s, lol. You are a nation main, a Swedish one-trick pony, who can’t even produce results in the objectively best MBTs in the game (122s), and has to spend his time on the forum arguing how they’re somehow worse than the 2A7s because apparently the difference in performance between DM53 & m/95 (lets mention how you completely rejected the fact that Sweden has a better spalling shell on the basis of using armor analysis) and 3rd generation thermals are enough to make up for 122s having better armor (122B+ even has better side armor), better mobility, and less weakpoints - when, you don’t even have the 2A7s. You are a literal lost cause.

tl;dr, since you probably don’t have a long enough attention span to read through all of that; your entire narrative is built on an assumption that people won’t call you out for using stupid ahh arguments, and thus this discussion is a waste of time as you have nothing else to present other than mental gymnastics.

And you having that picture saved on your hard drive for several years doesn’t change the fact it proves you lied, lol.

Whatever makes yourr sleep easier.

100

still to point out where I claimed a 2A5 isn’t mid, and 4 swedish leopards is equal to the 4 german leopards in numbers, you beefing with numbers now? (yeees, already pointed out I forgot to write in the one finnish leopard, cry abt it)

please, call me out and show some proof with it then. But instead of that, you’ve started to cry about my stats. “you are a nation main, a Swedish one-trick pony”, yeah that totally proves your facts weren’t fabricated lies, stop yapping man 🤣

101

and yet again, equal in numbers doesnt mean equal in capability which the whole thread is about and as a result your whole thing is useless and has no reason to exist.
you are running in a circle because you cant even comprehend the topic of this thread

102

you started counting them my guy, doesn’t that make your entire argument irrelevant?

quite literally said that before you did too, you using my arguments now? 😭

103

it is relevant genius, because i was talking about the tanks at the same capability level, which apparently u missed the whole point on this thread

you yourself said leopards arent equal to the strv122 besides the 2a7v.
as such they cant be compared equaly.
sweden has 3 tanks on the same level as the one german tank thats a fact.
you are the one which doesnt get the whole topic

104

First of all, it was me who had to make you remember that Sweden has four Leopard 2s. Two, you have memory of a goldfish. Funniest part is how they are only equal in numbers, but are nowhere near close in terms of capability. Only the Leopard 2A7V is close the 122s, while still being worse - wanna know how I know that? I actually have both models, and can compare them based on how they perform when I play them, not like you, who is a single-nation main (there’s a reason why I’ve been calling you this, granted, it flew over your head).

cry abt it)

Like you are crying about people being aware 122s are better than the 2A7s and won’t change their mind despite your whining? :)

please, call me out and show some proof with it then

This feels like I am talking to a person who doesn’t even remember their own words, oh no wait, you don’t.

yeah that totally proves your facts weren’t fabricated lies, stop yapping man 🤣

You’ve come in here to rant about how we can ignore what makes 122s into 122s, just to go into a main-brain induced babyrage once told that you cannot do that, as it’s hypocritical.

You’re going in circles whilst not even properly comprehending what this thread is about, a self-writing comedy in fact.

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105

Then let’s compare capabilities, instead of numbers. How does the number of Leopards that Sweden has somehow translate into being relevant when discussing their individual capabilities, which is what we’re discussing, aren’t we?

find your own arguments man, or are you agreeing with me? Weird how you’re talking about me not remembering my own words, yet you forget that’s the same argument I used? Stop trying to strawman it and turn it around, you really are desperate.

Is this your response to me asking about proof that 12.0 MBTs can penetrate the UFP of a 2A7V? (remember how to use the tool correctly btw, and why use insults rather than facts? is it because you ain’t got nun?)

106

you are a clown and literaly not worth discussing with you yourself stated already that the strv122 are better then leopard 5/6 pso. bye

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107

U cry to inaccurate armor on the 2a7? Try merkavas lil bro

108

Sure, quote yourself saying that, then. Surely you can do that without editing your comment ;)

I can help you remember what you said though; “Strv 122 without its additional armor (stupid argument, btw) is pretty much a 2A5 or a 2A6” and “If we do not discuss the armor benefits, they are the same tank”, that was what you said, in the same tune, you also stated that Germany has more MBTs than Sweden (just to be proven wrong by me shortly after), and even then, you still did not mention that those additional MBTs of Germany’s are vastly inferior because they don’t have the armor (it was @dotSHINI who did that), instead you tried to peddle that we can just ignore 122s armor and then its just a 2A5 thus “mid” (lol).

Is this your response to me asking about proof that 12.0 MBTs can penetrate the UFP of a 2A7V?

You never said to find a “12.0 MBT”, you just said to “find an MBT that can do that”:

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I’ve been using facts, and trying to explain to you why you’re wrong, but it’s impossible - simply because you don’t want us to prove you wrong, you just want us to agree with your forced narrative of 122s being somehow worse than the 2A7Vs depsite their better armor, better mobility (higher top speed and faster acceleration due to better hp/t), less weakpoints (122s upper plate will ricochet even at 80 degrees, 2A7Vs cannot, in addition to 2A7Vs gunner optic channel being penetrable, and its mantlet having more weakspots), and a better shell for ‘killing’ (due to better spall characteristics), this thread had to wait for me to mention that 2A7V has better sights, since you clearly couldn’t remember that, and for Renzo to state that the perforation difference between DM53 and m/95 doesn’t matter (you agreed with him, fun fact), so all things considered, it’s 3 pluses for the 122s, and 1 plus for the 2A7V. You’ve even been trying to claim that I’m “strawmanning you” (when all I’m doing is mocking you and your logic, lol). Chances are you don’t even know what a strawman is, you just saw me use it here, and decided to use it on repeat, seeing as you re-made (read: strawmanned) my argument in which I had mocked you saying we can leave armor out of the discussion, and acted like I said that Leopard 2A5 is equal to the Strv 122 with its armor, when I didn’t.

Literal child-tier discussion from you, then again, we should have never expected more from a guy who glazes Sweden like there’s no tomorrow. Good bye, I’m no longer going to entertain you anymore.

109

It was a typo? I even said they had the equal amount in the end of that sentence, so you’re “proving” me wrong on something I never said? All I said was that germany had 4 leopards, and sweden had 3 STRVs, so they are equal. (notice how I said they are equal in number? quite literally just a typo not to count the finnish one, as it isn’t an STRV I forgot).

What about, when in the same sentence, I mentioned that the only way they would not be inferior, was if the 122 didn’t have the armor. I.e. I said they were vastly inferior because they don’t have the armor. Look man, you are just lying at this point. You’ve yourself confirmed I compared them on the basis of the 122 not having any additional armor. And you’ve also said that I claimed they were then equal. Why backtrack?

And here you confirm that I mentioned I called the leopards only comparable if the 122 didn’t have it’s additional armor. I.e I literally called the 2A6 and 2A5 inferior in armor value in that sentence. I’m not sure where you see the peddling, except from yourself. You claim one thing in the first sentence, then claim another thing that contradicts that right after? PLEASE MAN LMFAO, stop dodging the accountability.

I agreed with him because I believe they spall about the same. I’m not saying the DM53 spalls better as you like to claim, but that the performance difference doesn’t matter because it’s about the same. You want to see a quote on that?

first post I made here by the way, you can’t say I changed on that lmfao

Look, you gave me one overpowered vehicle that can penetrate it, the OBJ 292, ain’t no one denying that. But from the start, my argument was “The STRV122 has better armor, but realistically in-game it does not make any difference, as no vehicle can achieve such a high penetration value to penetrate the 2A7 anyway,”.

My point still somewhat stands, as I was referring to other main battle tanks that you’ll ACTUALLY FACE not stupidly overpowered tanks. If I shoot a 122 with a Sturmtiger at its armor, it’s going to die. Does that mean the armor is worthless? nooooo! But I guess your right, my entire argument falls as tanks like the Sturmtiger and OBJ.292 can kill these tanks!!! (not straw-manning, simply pointing out how all those “facts” you used are irrelevant)

You also pointed out that the STRV can protect against APFSDS with 700mm pen better than the 2A7, but guess what, that doesn’t exist in the game! Be realistic man, don’t paint up some dream. And your fabricated picture where you intentionally angeled the camera wrong so the armor on the 2A7 would be less effective? You have yet to post an updated picture that’s not fabricated when I called you out for it.

Please, feel free to call me a child and Sweden glazer all you want. I feel like I’ve already picked most of your arguments apart piece by piece, somewhat at least considering how you keep on resorting to insults, instead of actually trying to back your arguments up with facts or any sort of proof. And think we can both agree this argument is finally over, have a good night!