Who gets to call what is "Copy-Paste"?

[Stockholm_Blend]

@Pangolin_Fan

America sold a lot of vehicles to a lot of nations.

Yes.

@Pangolin_Fan

That doesn’t mean they should be copy slopped to every nation in Warthunder.

It is debatable. There would be playerbase who wants to play British Chaffee with Sherman IIA(76mm Sherman Variant) and some other lend-leased vehicles. because it is also a part of history.

As a British Main, I still await P-51s and Sabre F.4, which ‘WE ORDERED’ from YOU.
But we didn’t even had rights to get ‘copy slopped’. :/

In case you gets alergic too much about copy-paste, Austrailian built CAC Mustang can be an option for the UK Tech-tree.

@Pangolin_Fan

Japan is simply one of the more egregious examples of copy slopping. Not only do they have more than almost any other nation

have more than almost any other nation?
Well, of course, this captured image isn’t a direct comparison and needs extra calculating,
(For example, WW2 Germany + Western Germany + Eastern Germany + and some Argentine vehicles.)

But well, I don’t think Japan has ‘more vehicles than almost any other nation’
And if we only consider the ‘copy-pasting’ side, you guys sent them back to stone-age. Weren’t you?

@Pangolin_Fan

Japan has enough unique vehicles irl.

Unique vehicles
-Which saw never combat
-or never finished development
-because of being destroyed by carpet bombing
-also acts inferior to imported counterparts in nearby BR in War Thunder.
-Questionable about giving new play experiences.

:P

[GTP_Paulie-psn]

Copy paste according to most War Thunder players: “BAAAAH this vehicle has a weapon, it is copy paste because all other vehicles in the games have weapons”.

Seriously though, to me copy paste is a 100% identical vehicle, like the M55s seem to be. Small differences, even if it is basically the same vehicle but built in a different country with a different machine gun or something, is a unique vehicle.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Stockholm_Blend

have more than almost any other nation?

I don’t mean more vehicles total I mean more copy slopped vehicles.

@Stockholm_Blend

Which saw never combat

A significant chunk of WT vehicles never saw combat irl.

[gfdsa_killer]

@Pangolin_Fan

but they don’t even need a single one. Japan has enough unique vehicles irl.

For ww2 period they do lack ground vehicles, most of them are so ass they are at very low br, and then things like Ho-Ri and other paper heavy tanks are not even real, just paper. And I do not want gaijin to take the WoT path with japan.

[Stockholm_Blend]

Sometimes, as a joke,
‘rarely’ 100% identical copy-paste acts better than ‘uniqueness to being inferior’, I guess.

For Example
-F-4J(UK) which cannot armed with AIM-7F and lost VTAS HMS for ‘100% historical’
-French Lancaster, which can’t use Blockbuster and has fewer turrets.
-Swedish P-51, which hasa slightly worse ammunition belt
-French F-100D, which can’t use AIM-9E but shares the same BR with american counterparts.
-Finnish PzKpfw IV, which lost its Anti-Air MG42.

I am well aware 100% copy-paste is lame, but sometimes, it seems Gaijin intended to nerf the vehicle to ‘being inferior’ for ‘looks unique’
:|

@Pangolin_Fan

I don’t mean more vehicles total I mean more copy slopped vehicles.

1- Well, before introducing the Thailand subtree, they had quite a lot of domestic vehicles, innit? So I don’t think it has ‘most copied vehicles’
2- Maybe it is your karma that you sent them back to stone-age. They lost their capability to build more unique vehicles. quite similar to French in ‘dark age of 1940s’

For example, JASDF didn’t develop enough modern jets, so how can we add jets in japanese Tech Tree without copying?

@Pangolin_Fan

A significant chunk of WT vehicles never saw combat irl.

You missed the rest of the part, but cherry-picked that one, eh? :|
I mean, some magical, mythical unique domestic japanese vehicle can be ‘looks fun’ because it ‘looks’ unique.
But in fact, it wouldn’t be good enough to give fun.

Just like how we Brits are FORCED to use SOLID AP on our 75mm QF Mk. V even though we used both of ‘Solid M61 APCBC’ and ‘Fuzed M61 APCBC’.

What is your definition of ‘uniqueness’?
-Being inferior to the big 3 major nations forever? By being gatekept for the greater good in the name of ‘copy paste bad’?

And most of the unique japanese ground vehicles would be good enough to fill ranks 1-2, which are already cramped.

[一弹定天下]

@Just_Baron

Copy and paste isn’t inherently bad, but it’s often used as a lazy route rather than a gap filler.

I couldn’t agree with you more. Copy-and-paste only works on tech trees that don’t really have a vehicle to get out of. Instead of copying and pasting when there are many different vehicles that can come outI couldn’t agree with you more. Copying and pasting is only applicable to those technology trees where there are really no vehicles to go out, not when there are many different vehicles to go out. Such lazy behavior will make the game lose its fun…

[Deathmisser]

@Smin1080p_WT

The term has unfortunately become massively overused, to the point where some people now claim even variants of vehicles with clear differences are “copy paste”

Which is why I hate the term since when you pressure people into why they call it" C&P" it mainly boils down for them not liking it and that really winds me up as they’ve could of easily said they don’t like it but to them saying it’s easier to say it’s C&P just to attention seek.

[I_Morpho_I-psn]

I don’t really care, obviously there’s a vague consensus on what copy and paste vehicles are (yes the J30 is C+P, just because it’s not on the same level as the maximum effort Chinese and Thai M60A3 TTS doesn’t make it turbo unique) but what is bad or good copy and paste depends entirely on who you ask.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Stockholm_Blend

ell, before introducing the Thailand subtree

I’m talking about the present.

@Stockholm_Blend

Maybe it is your karma that you sent them back to stone-age

Then Gajin shoulda added subtrees with unique vehicles instead of just copy slopping.

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

but it makes almost no game play difference so it didnt really need to be added honestly like you could have chose anything else like for example the sherman with M17 whiz bang launchers

even if you dont consider this swedish mosquito copy and paste if you look at a few battle passes ago they literally just took a B25 and called it unique cause it was in the french tree

[Smin1080p_WT]

This would be a tank, so it would not have replaced the air reward.

The J30 is a spesific variant that only Sweden had. Had it been something very unique with a large “gameplay difference”, a different set of people would be upset that its “takes something unique away from the tree”. So a balance must be struck.

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

yes i do agree with what your saying but they could have chose something a little more unique for example for aircraft heres something a bit unique no one would care if was gone
swedens test bed for jet engines

[Smin1080p_WT]

This is a Lancaster bomber, without the bomber part (as there is a jet engine taking up the entire bomb bay) and all defensive turrets removed. It has no weaponry, as its sole purpose was to test engines.

[Stockholm_Blend]

@Pangolin_Fan

I’m talking about the present.

Well, Thailand has 17 vehicles in total,

4 Ground Vehicles

-M163 VADS

-M60A3 TTS

-Stingray

-Oplot-T

and some other 13 aeroplanes.

Heavily concentrated on filling the ‘missing gap of modern jets’

And well, the Oplot, with some fancy ‘advanced/modernised’ F-5E (with israel technology), isn’t a copy-paste one.

How about Alpha jet with AIM-9P4 or AV-8S with inferior AIM-9P (Unlike T-2, for Harrier, AIM-9G is better because it gives longer range for stealth-kill)

I don’t think the addition of Thailand subtree didn’t made a big difference.

Some of them are lame, but they are also needed. sadly. :/

For Air, I only disagree about Thai SB2C, which was a bit interesting to me, but also could be replaced by B7A.

@Pangolin_Fan

Then Gajin shoulda added subtrees with unique vehicles instead of just copy slopping.

That was the reason why Gaijin added Thailand subtree.
Well, I know that the result is quite disappointing(Half of them are copy-pasted, but also was needed), but it filled the gap anyway.

If you really worry about copy-paste,
How about
-Drive DMC-12 of your own, and stop the weapon deals?

Honestly, I just wonder why you have so much aggression against ‘Japan gets some American vehicles’.
American gets british Skink or Spitfire good, but Japanese gets american M24 bad?

Yes, too much of copy paste are lame, and I also dislike it, but I am a bit wondering about your stance, sir.

[Get_HeshED]

I’d divide tanks in few categories.

Copy-paste - M44s, M55s, PZH HU, Leo 2A4s, PT-76s (aside chinese one), ZSU-57s etc

Technically “not copypaste” - vehicles that work literally the same in game, but have a few technical differences. Stuff like Kungstiger, new mosquito and like a billion other variants of popular vehicles that have slightly different propellars, exhausts, additional LMG or whatever.

Different but not unqiue/boring - vehicles that are actually different, but play pretty much exact same as others we have in game. Stuff like new ELC, Fox and Scimitar and alike. I’d say this is the smallest group here.

Actually unique stuff - tanks that have enough to offer to warrant playing them over their counterparts. Even if it’s not much, you feel and acknowledge while playing them that they are in fact something else.

When deciding on what to add, i’d draw the line between different but not unique and technically not copypaste.

Vehicles like new ELC may not be very interesting, but they at least somewhat increase the variety in the game. Also since it’s in the same nation, it doesn’t water down the battles as much.

Stuff like the new mosquito on the other hand? Eh, i will pass. It offers literally nothing that other mosquito variants don’t gameplaywise. They don’t even look different and no matter how hard you try you won’t see any differences. They could have just made the radar researchable on some other mosquito as an upgrade and called it a day.

[Get_HeshED]

Then actually strike the balance then.

I wouldn’t mind if it was some sort of cycle with one or two seasons with boring rewards and then a good one.

The probelm is that we haven’t had a good unique battle pass reward in years…

If we get nothing unique at all then it’s not balance.

The only even remotely interesting reward we had since the M551(76) has been the chinese WZ, everything else was either complete copypaste like french M46 or on the verge of it with Kungstiger only lacking an MG, HE Greif only having pretty much useless guided missiles and alike.

Up to M551(76) i used to grind pretty much all battle passes, it kept me in the game pretty much daily. But ever since the Sholef fiasco i don’t think i have ever went past level 30. It takes a lot of effort to complete the BP and these rewards just aren’t even remotely close to being worth it.

[Smin1080p_WT]

@Get_HeshED

They don’t even look different and no matter how hard you try you won’t see any differences

You dont have to look that hard to see them.

Here is the Norwegian FB Mk VI ASH (the latest Mosquito Mk available in the Swedish tree), with its air to surface radar.

And here is the J30

@Get_HeshED

They could have just made the radar researchable on some other mosquito as an upgrade and called it a day.

This would not be possible with any of the current Mosquito variants in game. Since none of them have the changes and modifications required to even be close to the J30.

The J30 was a Swedish modification of the Mk XIX. Fitted with new props, radios/internals and a different radar for Swedish use.

So there is no aircraft in game (In the Swedish or British tree) that this radar could simply be a modification for. Since all marks don’t have the correct base model (XIX) and the fact there are clear changes between all other existing models. No FV Mk VI ever had this radar or was ever converted.

[YaSen]

Actually Hungarian PzH is a bit different from German one, not complete copypaste, as it’s a later model. Iirc the main difference is in radiator placement or smth else in the engine compartment.
Still waiting for Italian variant, which would feature LWS and maybe they could give it Vulcano shell at higher br.
Hungarian Leopard 2A4HU should also have different smoke grenades placement and FN MAG roof mounted machinegun, compared to German 2A4 and maybe some other small differences, which are often ignored/forgotten on regular tree copied models (although iirc FN MAG was modelled, but bugged).

Spoiler

[THEPolishThunder]

Copy & paste should be classified as vehicles which are complete clones, such as the M44,M55,Leopard 2A4, T-72M1 etc.
But then there are people in the community who drag that definition onto modified vehicles out of personal bias as well which is where the line should be drawn.

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

the mods it has the 4 bladed prop and the new radar dont really change the playstyle enough to warrant it unique its 96% cosmetic changes its not that unique honestly you can just get prototype vehicles like the millions of one off prototype planes suggested daily

just dont pick Service vehicles as battle pass rewards like F11-F1 as that would have made valuable contribution to the tree

your best bet would be to do a poll with the community i think many people would like that if you let players of the game voice a opinion

pick a few prototypes out of a hat
and let the community decide from highest voted one