As we all know the snail loves to give out stuff that are similar or identical both in and across trees, for example the Leopard 2a4, m44, m55 or the T72m1 just to name a few.
However those are not what I’m talking about here, what I want to discuss is what should be considered copy paste slop. In the most recent battle pass the Mosquito J30 and the ELC 901 were introduced, and instantly we see people complaining that we already have this stuff in game.
Indeed there are already mosquitos at 3.7 doing the same job and I’d personally say the ELC 901 is gonna do the exact job of the current ECL bis. However our friendly neighborhood mod Mr.Smin was quick to jump out to argue that this mosquito has an extra propellor blade and new radar so is therefor a completely new model.
copy and paste generally is when a vehicle is added to the game but is either:
Identical to one already in game, just in another tree
almost identical but its differences are so small the gameplay relating to them is near or exactly identical
visually very different but core gameplay is next to identical to a preexisting variant in game
the ELC 901 fits the third one. visually very different from the production AMX ELC but its gonna play the exact same… its cool enough as a vehicle that it becomes a “good” C&P from looking so funky, a similar example would be the sabre CVRT thats hidden in the games files, its gonna play the exact same as the scimitar if it ever gets added but has an odd look and history behind it to make it acceptable to those who know.
The Mosquito is only slightly different to radar mosquitos in game visually and will play the exact same. This is an easy “bad” C&P because its literally just another mosquito, which is already a very well-represented plane in the Swedish tree.
Smin is used as a mouthpiece for gaijin, he doesnt deserve the flak people give him as its not down to him. its shooting the messenger.
extra blade and radar. Its just a TR33 without an arrestor hook.
The more vehicles the merrier, most of us agree with that. Its just a shame that most vehicles that are added nowadays are not truly unique but a rehashing of whats been in the game for years
Copy and paste is when a vehicle is identical in gameplay, function, or overall performance.
Examples:
The Mig-19S is not a C&P Mig-19PT because of the lack of missiles and radar.
The Chinese J-7II is not C&P of the MiG-21F because it has a different engine, cockpit, and a higher rip speed.
The M44s/55s are copy and paste because they are all identical.
The German and Dutch 2A4s are C&P because they are functionally identical, with no meaningful differences between them.
The new T-72 is not C&P because it’s different to anything else in game in its spaded state, but it’s still quite lazy because it’s a higher BR T-72 without relikt and other things, but with APS. It probably didn’t take much effort to create, and it’s a mediocre reward at best.
Copy and paste isn’t inherently bad, but it’s often used as a lazy route rather than a gap filler. If a country used a vehicle, they should receive it, within reason.
And I expect more nations to fill up with Leopards soon enough.
Personal opinion.
I call copy paste vehicles that have little to none changes between them. I would argue that even payload changes are changes…
And if anything , we knew from the start that after a certain point in military history happens different forces having the same variant as basis , but include minor modifications in the armament or avionics.
If anything it is nice to see them appear in game.
Now there are some pure C&P like this
but the question here is , is that mandatory for balancing the TT from the time the said force used that equipment? Sometimes yes, sometimes no…
But there are vehicles for example F-104G , that have different capabilities depending on the force they appear … even if the basis is exactly the same , but the armament options are not.
Copy paste in my books is a vehicle given to a nation that was on the enemy side in a given conflict to the origin nation.
British Hellcats, British Mustangs are fine in my book - it’s historical.
Japanese corsairs are absurd as during WW2 (when corsairs were relevant - korean war notwithstanding) japan and U.S were enemy nations.
This I consider to be the important metric due to visual IFF. In air sim EC, seeing a british mustang as america is NBD - whether american or british, it’s a friend.
However, american Bf 109 F4? Japanese Hellcat? German P-47? Awful.
Swedish mosquito is a weird one. Sweden wasn’t part of WW2. Finland was against Eastern Allies. Yet, in SB Finland/Sweden fights axis more often than not and when it is on “axis” side, so is USSR.
There is some IFF issues from swedish mosquito when it’s on red side, but usually at WW2 brackets people seem to run Sweden as allied usually.
Honestly, I do LIKE and WANT copy-paste.
Ergo:
German tech tree has a mundane Bf 109 F4.
Then germany, italy or japan also gets a 1:1 Bf 109 F4 that’s premium with an ace’s name stapled on. I want the Hungairan Bf 109 F4 to be a normal premium and not marketplace. Hungarian because “No german aces” rule of Gaijin.
For me even slightly different models/modifications are not copypaste, but identical variants of vehicles which don’t even differ in anything or at max some visuals over armor are copypaste.
For example M4A4 is copypasted across French, Italian, Chinese TTs, M26A1 on the other hand, while it doesn’t differ much from other M26s (though could be more interesting if Gaijin used Italian postwar M26 as a base model, instead of American M26), it’s still a different model with a different cannon.
I would love to have a research improvement which would allow to at least get some discounts for identical vehicles in other TTs after you’ve already researched it in at least one of nations.
This is unfortunately not the case. Sweden does not have any Nightfighter variant. Thr J30 specifically is also a unique Swedish modification specifically with the PS-20 radar and 4 bladed props, as well as some other minor changes like canopy and internal things. Something that no other nations mosquito had in this exact configuration as this was unique to Sweden.
This is also not the case. The ASH radar system is significantly different to the PS-20. The entire nose area was also redesigned on the XIX / J30. Just taking off the arrestor hook doesnt provide you with the J30.
The term has unfortunately become massively overused, to the point where some people now claim even variants of vehicles with clear differences are “copy paste”. Copy and pasting the TR.33 with a new skin for example doesn’t get you to the J30. As it ia a different model to the TR.33 with several changes. It would be like calling the Spitfire Mk IX a “copy paste” of the Mk V since its just a different engine with a couple of other “minor” chanages, which of course is not the case.
Naturally there are always going to be vehicles with similar gameplay to others. But it doesn’t mean domestic modifications or key historical users should be ignored or left out.
The J30 is a very good example this, being a modification only useed by Sweden. A fun aircraft thats ideal as a BP reward because it doesn’t remove anything significant from the main tree (something that causes people to take issue with) and is there for those people that want a Swedish take on a well known aircraft.
Its also worth noting that in the modern era, its entirely normal for most nations to operate the same types of popular effective vehicles. As this is simply the reality of military procurement and modern arsenals. So its not uncommon to see multiple nations with Leopards, Sukhois or F-16s for example.
For me, the most serious problem with copy-pasting is when they add the same vehicle to several tech trees without changing anything in the 3D model, including bags, backpacks, and other items in the same positions, indicating that they’ve recycled the model 100%. Even worse is the fact that they could have added an indigenous vehicle instead, for example, the M44 in the German tech tree when they could have added the final model Brummbar or the Hummel. For instance, one thing they did well was add different bags around the turret of the M24DK, but in many other cases, they haven’t made any changes.
It’s worth noting the intention behind copy slop aswell. Some vehicles, like the French M4A4, exist to fill a gap. Other’s like the Japanese M19A1/M42, Japanese M4A3 76, Japanese M60A3 TTS, or the M44/55 and M109 copies exist to just bloat tech tree sizes, and make it look like Warthunder is getting alot of additions, and make it look like the devs are working hard when they’re really just copy slopping.
@Smin1080p_WT Hi, Smin. I noticed that the weights of TR.33 and J30 are EXACTLY the same, even though there are many differences between them. Was this intentional?
Respectfully Smin, I believe the playerbase should decide on what is copy-paste, not Gaijin.
On another note, we already have 3 mosquitos with 4 20mils, so in the eyes of people who don’t care about technicalities the j30 is just as sloppy as any. Same goes for the “grand prize”, identical role, BR and playstyle as the TT ELC.
Remember when we had stuff like the PaKwagen or the Strikemaster? Maybe players won’t complain about copy paste if we actually got unique and fun stuff.
We also have at least 5 Bf 109s in the German tree with 1 x 20mms. Or a multitude of Spitfires with 2 x 20mms. Its not really a relevant matter or reason not to add something.
Thats why we have laid out the clear details, so people can aee the facts rather than assume.
If you “dont care” about technicalities then, unfortunately everything becomes a “copy paste”. The technicalities are what distinguish between variants.
Then a different group of people take issue with the fact something unique is “locked behind the battlepass”. So we have to strike a balance.
Yep, and I got the answer I was expecting: full of technicalities and dismissal of the playerbase’s opinions.
I know this is not really related to the topic and isn’t gonna do anything but I’ve gotta say this is the reason the game is getting more and more underwhelming. War Thunder is a great game, and it’s just sad to see it rot in the hands of Gaijin
You could go check under most of the topics about recent events and battle passes tho, the thing that pops up the most is about why that addition is not that “unique”
I’d say it would strictly be 1 to 1 copies that have nothing to differentiate to another version in a different tree like the M44s and M55s.
I’d say there’s levels of uniqueness:
Completely unique: The only vehicle of it’s family
Unique variant: A vehicle part of a family that differs significantly to the rest of its kin.
Partially unique variant: A vehicle which is quite similar to another in it’s family but has it’s easily found differences (max speed for example)
Somewhat unique variant: Vehicles that have very few or hard to notice differences to another in it’s family but still has some difference in gameplay, even if just barely.
Copy-paste: 1 to 1 copy of an existing vehicle that you can find elsewhere in exactly the same specifications
Still kinda sucks to lose these 2 vehicles with differences but way better than losing the Churchill crocodile and Stirkemaster MK.88
