If two equally skilled players were fighting 1v1 and one was in a p51 and one was in a SB2C with the energy adventage, the one in a p51 wouldn’t stand a chance
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That is not an issue, simply avoided with a 10 second assessment of the enemy team
Just false, it like comparing an Mig-17 with a G-91, just because the g91 starts at a higher alt doesn’t mean they have an advantage past the headon and ensuing rate fight, where the inferior FM will lead to a loss in an equally skilled fight
Well, if a G-91 had 3000 meters altitude adventage I’d bet on the G-91
The P51 wins every time, I should know cause I’m usually the P51.
SB2C has an effective speed range of 200 - 250kph.
The P51 works from 200 - 500+kph.
So yeah, that SB2C can ruin energy advantage and then lose cause the P51 was going 500kph while the SB2C was going 380 in the dive and a turn makes it go to ~240 real quick.
The pure fact that a tanker struggles with obstacles in Air RB and asks for external help is somehow understandable - but imho your observations have some weaknesses:
- The B7A2 is actually a “real” bomber - capable of being used as level bomber as the bombardier/gunner has an actual bomb sight.
- The SB2Cs are just dive/torpedo bombers (without a bomb sight) and don’t deserve the medium bomber spawn of 3.500 meters on most maps.
- The two Swedish T-18 Bs are also no level bombers, they were developed from B-18 Bs specifically for ground attacks.
- So your list is incomplete - we have on top of that also another strike aircraft (the Brigand) without a bomb sight which is used as fighter.
Agree and see above - a plane with a bombsight for level bombing deserves the medium bomber spawn. As a fun fact: The US A-20G sits as 3.0 as strike aircraft - and the USSR premium at BR 3.7 as a bomber with bomber spawn; gaijin managed to implement a bomb sight it never had as they have a solid nose with 6 x 0.50 cals.
This is nonsense.
This is correct.
Seriously? I meet frequently some guys with more than 15.000 kills in it…
Nonsense part 2. Even as the last 3 turn way better, they are slower (Ki-43 & A6Ms and are in your team) and Spits are usually outclimbed by a substantial amount; easy targets for energy traps.
The first 5/6 aircraft have no serious chance in a 1 vs 1 even if the B7A2 is a slight disadvantage. The only real threats for a B7A2 are PM-1s and Ki-61s - depending on alt and speed the Chinese Ki-44 is able to win an engagement at very high speeds, but not in a turnfight.
There is no sealclubbing at rank III. If you face US teams with up to 5 XP-50s and 2 P-61s and your team has zero air spawn fighters you might get the point.
It depends on the B7A2 pilot…
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If the fighter pilot is experienced enough the divebomber pilot doesn’t stand a chance. It only has good pull rate+ godd guns. If the fighter pilot is less experienced instead the divebomber won’t have any trouble winning.
I don’t really get the “pilot experience” arguement
An experienced pilot in po-2 could defeat an inexperienced pilot in f-16
If you simplify everything to “skill issue” then what’s the point of BR anyway?
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No an experienced fighter pilot has a good chance at winning against an experienced divebomber pilot, while a less experienced fighter pilot has a bad chance at winning against an equally less experienced divebomber pilot.
There are certainly aircraft that have air spawn that shouldnt and a few that dont that should. I always get annoyed when im shot down by an airspawned ME-262 in something like a Lincoln.
It all depends on the initial conditions
If a player in a B7 is handicapped with much more altitude at the start, then the odds for the fighter pilot are significantly reduced
imo planes like B7A2 or SB2C should have the strike aricraft spawn
Your logic applies to any fights of faster aircraft vs better turning aircraft and is not limited to B7A2s or dive bombers. For B7A2s it is always the same: You outrun the aircraft which turns better and outturn faster aircraft. Imho the PM-1 is the sole exception.
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Whilst I am for sure not an ace - but the question is always if you can play around the strengths of your opponent whilst being able to use your own. And, ofc, how you setup the fight. And in 95% of the cases the B7A2 is above any standard fighter.
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I love to clap very good pilots in Yak-3s as i have zero problem to cut inside their turns; even if the plane is way more nimble. Same as with guys trying to throttle drop or use the “German air brake”.
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From my pov the air brake, good turn and very good high alt performance (>7 km) are decisive advantages - the “experienced” fighter pilot need usually ages to equalize the initial altitude advantage or tries to drain your energy by running with very high speeds.
Your assessment might be true for Air AB - but have in mind that this is a RB discussion - the game works different in Air RB.
Seeing that you have actual 11 air kills in total in Air RB (and you haven’t flown the B7A2s there) you might agree that your input is not really helpful in this case.
Have a good one!
They usually just head-on bombers with their gunpods and hope they wont get pilot sniped. Hard to call that a fighter…
SB2C is bad. B7A2 Cancere (or was it Crayfish? Shrimp? Whateve) on the other hand is super deadly and IMO deserves to either go up in BR, or start spawning at lower alt.
Airspawns allow for some sealclubbing power due to ability to disrupt enemy climb.
However, you do not need to be at the same altitude as the opponent to win a 1vs1 fight against them.
Energy is more than altitude. Energy is speed and the ability to convert altitude into more speed.
Observe what happens when a SB2C or b7 dives on you from altitude while you turn into them forcing them to either disengage or engage in a split s or similar turn.
They lose more energy than you do.
Aircraft capable of maintaining their altitude and bullying with it are the likes of bf109s and p-51cs: these planes do not lose a lot of speed, generate speed quickly and are quite maneuverable. A disciplined P-51c is very, very annoying to fight (been doing that a lot lately as I’ve been learning the a6m3/a6m5.)
Given I cannot imagine a dive bomber performing better than the Ki-61, and the Ki-61 struggling bleeding energy like crazy in turns and climbs… I have doubts these two aircraft should pose any issue beyond their tail gunners.
Screw tail gunners, a lot of my deaths lately have been to p-61 tailgunners.
Sorry but no.
The P-51(c) will easily take the game. Those things are very capable and powerful aircraft. The only time I could see a P-51 struggle against a dive bomber is above 4 km altitude where your engine starts to struggle.
I can see the arguments to move them to strike fighter airspawns though.
Edit: Got curious -
The p-51c outperforms the SB2C in energy generation in all regimes:
200 km/h ias
300 km/h ias
400 km/h ias
500 km/h ias
The P-51c has nearly double the power generation at 3-4 km altitude range, only under 1km do they get close.
Energy generation means you can accelerate faster, climb better and sustain a tighter turn without bleeding energy (assuming equivalent airframe in terms of drag and lift. I tried to find energy diagrams but couldn’t. Gut says the helldiver is far draggier and less energy efficient given the shapes and sizes). Thus, while an initial advantage may exist - the p-51c can equalize it fairly readily and even give chase.
Test flight test for SB2C4 (dropped bombs before anything):
Fly at 350 IAS/420 TAS at 2950 (it took its sweet time accelerating to this speed)
Dive to 1700 and then pitch back up gently in a shallow climb. To return to 2950 meter altitude, speed bled down to 200 IAS/240 TAS km/h
P-51C: 380 IAS/445 TAS at 3050 meters
Dive to 1700, shallow climb back to 3050 meters
Now 360 IAS/420 TAS
(diving from faster speed because this thing accelerates to 400 pretty fast and trying to keep equal starting dive speeds was too much for me to bother with).
I’ve no idea how to fairly measure turn performance (I havn’t flown SB2C4 nearly enough to manage precise level turns or constant AoA/G). However, lazy testing again shows: SB2C4 loses a lot of its speed doing a 180 degree level turn and takes ages to regain it. P-51C loses a lot of speed in a 180 degree level turn and almost snaps back to a nice and comfortable speed after levelling out.
I don’t have the B7 to test it similarly, but here’s the power graphs:
200 km/h ias
300 km/h ias
400 km/h ias
500 km/h ias
Looks like their power generation gets scarily close above 4 km altitude (with WEP). At 3km the p-51C handily outperforms the B7 with both WEP and without. They get close with WEP under 1km, but without the P-51c outperforms it.
I’ve no context for how draggy the b7 is though, nor can I test it. I can’t imagine it retains energy any better than the Ki-61 tei though
The planes you listed all fly too s— to be an issue to fighters. The SBD is extremely unfair against other bombers at its br, but that’s it.
The IL series are very powerful fighters, but its like the A-10/Su-25s, where the only fights an IL series plane will get in, is one an enemy picks with you. They’re too slow to be an actual threat in most cases.
You can’t seriously say that the P-51H is rare . . .
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Honestly a skill issue to complain about that.
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There happens nothing - i drop on you in a B7A2, use air brake, park at your six and kill you. Game over. Especially those guys trying to turn very sharp to get outside your guns are surprised how easy this works. It needs, ofc, an undisturbed 1 vs 1 but as written above: 109s and P-51s lose those fights, all they can do is running away…
Fly both B7A2s, score a few thousand kills in Air RB with them and we talk again. The SB2C is in fact easy prey if you know how - and even if you have no clue: Just fly away from them, they are slow af.
That didn’t stop you to add a 10 kill match in it to the Air RB high score list:-)
If i see the Yak-3, Wyvern and XP-50 spam at slightly higher BRs i would support a higher BR of the B7A2s if those other aircraft would go up simultaneously. Otherwise it makes no sense to punish just one aircraft. So whilst the Wyvern was once 5.0 the B7A2 was at 4.3.
Technically seen an uptier (as example) to 4.0 would benefit the B7A2s - even as the enemy fighters get faster the turn advantage increases - and those extremely annoying full downtiers to BR 2.7 would be history. It takes ages to setup these I-153s or I-16s as they turn like hell…
This made me realize there’s a premium variant. Managed to test flight it with that.
Test-flight says - fine, it does perform comparably to the p-51c in a dive and retains energy much better in a turn.
Which frankly confuses me but that’s off-topic
... What's the deal with the Ki-61 Tei
They’re the same BR.
The Ki-61 is higher BR than A6M3 and Ki-100.
The Ki-61 struggles to maintain a 300 km/h IAS climb and does it so slowly, it needs to side climb like a bomber even in air sim.
It loses all its speed in a turn. It loses all its speed in a climb. It struggles to hit 400 km/h while the the a6m3 casually cruises at 400+ km/h and apparently even the b7 can easily reach such speeds in a level flight. The b7 can climb better than the ki-61 tei.
An interceptor is a significantly worse fighter than a same-BR torpedo bomber. Like, I get it: it hunts bombers but it’s too slow to catch b26s and p-61s and loses all its speed trying to climb after them. Its elevators lock up in a dive (I faceplanted that thing before).
It seems to perform okay above 4km, but it takes ages to climb up to that altitude and still struggles to hit 400 km/h straightline TAS. Still, must be better than a6m3 right? Dedicated inter- a6m3 maintains 440 km/h at 5km altitude just fine, zoom climb to 6km and re-accelerate super fast.
Maths also confirms:
My gut tells me a dive bomber, at the same BR as a interceptor, would perform worse both in a dogfight, BnZ and bomber interception than said interceptor
This is … what.