I started playing with Japaneese planes a few days ago and I found strange differences between realistic gameplay and simulator gameplay.
I started Japaneese tech tree with some unupgraded planes from rank I.
In realistc battles, the Ki-10s and the Ki-100-II was very good at manouvering. I have managed to win most of the time with turnfighting. The Ki-10 was good at it, and I have nearly 2500 battles with the Ki-100-II with a 70% winrate. Apart from some BnZ tactics with the K-100-II I have managed to outurn a lot of other planes: P-47s, F6Fs, Bf 109s and even Yak-3s. It worked pretty well, if my plane wasn’t damaged.
Now In simulator battles, I can’t outturn other biplanes. When I turn with my joystick, the Ki-10 starts shaking, which is a sign, I know, for reaching the planes turning limit. However, at this limit, a British Fury biplane could easily keep up with my plane.
The other thing happened when I played with the Ki-100-II. I spotted a Yak, and I followed it with turning. We made 1 or 2 circles, then my plane started shaking, then it rolled over, I lost control and crashed into the ground. However, as I wrote above, I could destroy even Yak-3s in turnfighting in realistic battles.
I would like to know what do I do wrong, or what’s the problem with Japaneese planes.
Can I expect shuch plane behaviours from other Japaneese planes, like the A6Ms or J2Ms?
You do nothing wrong. Everyone who switches from Realistic to Simulator experiences the same things. Planes from ALL nations seem to misbehave in Simulator when, in fact, it’s the planes in Realistic & Arcade that misbehave because of the INSTRUCTOR and players have simply become familiar with that.
Air time, sir. You need lots and lots of Sim air time and eventually, you’ll adapt.
For practice without losing Lions, you can create custom battles to fight bots.
And you can search YouTube for tutorials if you want.
What you’re experiencing is likely the product of uncoordinated flight.
Understanding the mechanisms can help get on top of it. Your control methods will vary but the cause remains the same:
Why does my plane keep rolling?
Propeller planes have a big spinning blade in front. This spinning blade creates a number of effects that have different magnitudes at different airspeeds and RPMs and throttle settings.
Gist is: The rolling moment is actually a yawing moment. This yaw induces a roll in the same direction. You counter it by applying yaw rather than roll as a consequence (and only apply roll after trimming out the yaw).
Gist is: Your cockpit has something called a “Turn & Slip Indicator” (ball in a horizontal tube). You want to get this ball to be in the center of the tube. if ball is left, left rudder. Ball is right, right rudder. You do the same with trim inputs.
Note: As previously indicated, this WILL change when you: change prop pitch (RPM), throttle position, accelerate, deccelerate, climb, sink.
Why you start shaking and having one wing drop way before what you should theoretically be able to pull in terms of AoA:
Spinning out from a stall comes from one wing stalling before the other wing.
Why that happens is due to multiple factors. Of these, the one you can control is “turn coordination”/“slip”/“skid.” When you make a left-hand turn in a typical aircraft, your inner (left) wing will experience less lift and less drag than your outer (right) wing. This will pull your plane’s nose over your outer wing (slip) which will alter the relative angle of attack for your two wings and also mess with their lift.
Gist: Same as with straight flight - rudder. You watch the ball in the tube. You turn left-hand, ball goes left, you press left rudder. Ball goes center.
Just be careful because if you press left rudder too much, ball goes into “skid” which will put your nose over your inner wing which will again cause one wing to stall before the other (this time your inner wing. If outer wing stalls first it’s easier to recover as it’s less violent while inner wing can be very, very violent).
Added note: The videos are for general aviation/civillian aircraft. WW2 planes are a different beast with ridiculously powerful engines, higher “wing loading” and far less inherent stability which will make everything much, much more finicky and violent. Your engine’s effects will affect which wing stalls first and adjusting throttle violently while on the edge of a stall WILL make you spin out (Bf 109 G-14 and K-4 is prone to do that).
Aerobatic aircraft show similar tendencies. This is one of my favorite videos on one thing that’s usually neglected in GA aircraft videos: gyroscopic precession! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86PPORTVHNE
You can intentionally induce a violent spin (useful for practicing recovery) by hard-pressing left rudder and turning left. It will immediately make you spin like crazy, giving you the perfect opportunity to practice recovery.
Recovery instruction videos:
Before last - often it’s better to cancel the incipient spin than to go into spin recovery. You can train for this by learning to recognize your wing dropping with your peripheral vision and using your RUDDER to offset the rolling moment while easing stick forward.
It’s just you nearing the stall limit on the wings. You will get better at managing this over time. Japanese planes do not have issues with this long term
We are glad to have you, and like all things, practice, practice, practice makes perfect.
As others have said, you are experiencing the transition to YOU controlling the airplane, compared to the INSTRUCTOR controlling the airplane. The instructor model used in Realistic and Arcade has a lot of “training wheels” built into it, that prevents and minimizes potentially dangerous things you can do in a real life airplane, like flying uncoordinated, stalling and spinning.
The first ands most obvious thing is you are almost certainly pulling the controls too hard, and need to ease it a bit back and learn to fly more smoothly. I advise spending a lot of time in practice flights relearning all the basics, of takeoff, landing, and kicking that drone’s ass over, and over, from multiple attack vectors, until it becomes second nature. Then start to mix in more advanced stuff later. (flaps, uncoordinated flight, manual engine controls).
Next, is learn to really master your views, as Sim is all about mastering your ability to look, locate, and keep your targets in view. Many of us use TrackIR, or VR to help.
You WILL get there, and boy, nothing is a satisfying like a well earned SIM kill.
Also as you specifically mentioned Japanese planes, don’t lump them into a giant bucket of “turnfighters” like you commonly hear in Arcade or Realistic. The Japanese WW2 tree is quite diverse.
You get everything from the true turnfighters like the KI-43, A6Ms and Biplanes, to the BnZ fighters like the KI-44s / Twin Engines, to the all rounders/energy fighters like the KI-61/100/84s. You have a lot of options to learn and enjoy!
Again, glad to have you with us, and stick with it!
First of all, I don’t plan to use a Track IR, or VR. I am satisfied with the little joystick on my thrustmaster throttle. I can follow the enemy, but there are some cases where I loose the enemy from sight. Altogether, I am satisfied with it.
I understand the spinnging and stalling, however it only works, when the plane is at minimum 1000 metres high.
But unfortunately, I can’t understand, if I play with a Ki-43-II which has 15 sec turn time, against a La-5F, which has 21 sec turn time, why can the La-5F still follow my turn.
Why doesn’t the La-5F start to roll over when it wants to follow my turn, when with the Ki-43-II I’m on the edge of rolling over? Just I can’t understand this when the Ki-43-II has better turn time than the La-5F.
If I pull the stick lighter, the result is the same, where the enemy can catch and destroy my plane.
(I got the turn time data from War Thunder Wiki )
Coordination was previously mentioned: If you keep the ball centered you get the most efficient turn with the least stall risk (engine effects not withstanding). This also contributes to geometry. If you are flying uncoordinated, you are “wasting lift” and not contributing it to gaining position. Rudder is VERY VERY VERY important to flying props.
Someone with excess speed (and altitude to turn into speed) can manifest some monstrous turn rate. The F6F-5 is the perfect example of this: “If a F6F-5 goes down hill, it will win” - IdahoBookworm on fighting one with 109s.
In terms of speed, flaps can be also a nasty surprise. Flaps burn energy and make you lose long-term* (some planes less so - like P-38), but if you get the kill before you burn out of energy, well - it doesn’t matter, does it?
Flaps vid. Has English captions.
Additional aspect to speed: Control stiffening and authority.
Some aircraft retain more control at different speeds. This means that although some aircraft’s wing loading could theoretically give them the advantage, they lack the ability to deflect their elevator enough to capitalize on it. U.S aircraft generally tend to be at an advantage at very high speeds maneuvers compared to peers.
Finally, something I didn’t realize when I was new:
Turn Circle Extensions.
If you constantly keep your nose at the enemy then you will keep “yoyoing” in a flat turn as you keep exchanging overshoots. This led me to losing lots of position and thus turnfights.
Learning when to ease up on the stick to go into lag and when to go aggressive into lead or pure pursuit can be pretty crucial to winning against an equally skilled opponent.
I know the the La-5F is better in vertical manouvers than the Ki-43-II. However, it didn’t choose vertical manouvers. The La-5F was coninously turning after me. We were both flat turning.
Watching recording/replay could provide better feedback but might be the video I added just now about “Turn Circle Extensions.”
(addendum: I do really recommend watching your fights you lost and those you won. They’re a great learning experience and you will cringe a lot. I cringe a lot at my own fights).
Could you try and give a breakdown of how the fight went?
How did you meet, merge, who was where and at what speed and altitude?
Because it might also be that he just had TONS of early advantage. When you have lots of early advantage, you can stick to someone’s tail like glue even in match ups like 109 vs Spitfire or F4U-4 vs Ki-84 or Mustang vs (whatever this japanese plane was) enough to get a shot.
This scenario was having speed that favoured the mustang and a very advantageous position from the merge.
Which manoeuvre you choose relies entirely on: 1. What you feel most proficient with, 2. Current conditions (altitude, speed, relative distance, closure, aspect, heading crossing angle) 3. What you fly 4. What your opponent flies. In other words: Choosing right requires lots of practice and experience because there’s no way you can consciously make such a choice in the time needed to survive.
In this scenario the spitfire attempts scissors at a low speed against a 109 F-4 but executes it far too early with too much turning room for the 109, allowing the aircraft with worse turn performance to stay glued. Before that, the “enemy can stay glued to your tail if they’re in a good position” can be observed with the 109 staying right behind the spitfire despite its attempts to turn because the 109 was already on their six.
It happened this weekday. I need some time to find this replay. Another problem is, nobody is allowed to upload .wrpl files to WT forums, and it seems I have to make a video and upload it to youtube. I think I can do it tomorrow.
Also I haven’t flown La-5Fn in a bit nor Ki-43 to really say my results are optimal performance AND sustained rate is one of my major weaknesses, but I did a bit of quick test with the La-5Fn.
If I don’t touch my rudder, I get ~2 degrees/second less turn with the La-5Fn (with ~3 degrees of angle of slip) compared to coordinating my turn (~±0.5 Angle of slip max)
Additionally, I bled my speed way faster with uncoordinated flat deck turn in La-5Fn. I’ll go try again later when I got time and maybe a bit more practice.
I just REALLY want to stress the importance of coordinating your turn for adjusting your energy bleed to net zero (sustained turn) and for maximizing turn rate.
