What people mean when they say "You didn't actually decompress". they DON'T mean "fix the whole game at once"

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

@Vamilad

Gaijin’s use of the algorithm to suggest BR change shows they are not concerned with decompression

? The algorithm will detect local areas of compression automatically, so “using an algorithm” =/= “not concerned about decompression” necessarily. I’m not following your logic.

It would not detect evenly distributed global compression, but it will detect and act on local concentrations of compression.

The algorithm doesn’t care.

Yes, it does, if for example the jump from 6.0 to 7.0 is more compressed than other areas of the tree, then various 7.0 vehicles will start to get 60% win rates, and 6.0 vehicles will start to drift to 40% win rates, for example, and the algorithm will care and kick in. That is what I was saying above: That this IS a decompression change, whether it was human initiated or robot initiated.

So the “move everything else above it up to make room for it” reasoning applies either way.

You could build that into the autopilot too, if you really wanted, so “wanting it to be on autopilot” isn’t really a reason either. It would actually be simpler than NOT having it in the algorithm (simply allow it to shift things above the top BR / don’t have a cap)

[Miragen]

They’re just messing around, nothing of what they are doing makes sense or achieves anything, this is like squeezing a balloon… the air just moves to the other side, and next update they’ll squeeze that side and the air flows back again, and then you squeeze both sides and the whole thing explodes, that’s where Warthunder was at years ago anyways.

They move up a bunch of vehicles and increase compression at higher BRs, the decompressed areas are still ruined by poor matchmaking and the usual neglect of lineups and nation matchmaking so the first wave was entirely pointless and maybe a few vehicles at BR 6 had a slightly easier time whilst everything else just suffers, like 7 to 7.7 being dominated by France and Russia as no one else has a lineup anymore.

Next they move things back up from 5.7 and 6.0 to face the same vehicles that were uptiered last time to negate those changes, and somehow there is more compression now with there no longer being a BR difference between the Tiger ll H and P, or the Tiger E now facing IS-3s for example, somehow the results of decompression is compression.

And now a whole slew of ridiculous BR changes based on horrible data, we had an event, we had a major update with new vehicles and changes, then another event and based on that they push through BR changes, when obviously events and major updates are going to influence vehicles performance.

And if that situation isn’t enough of a nightmare, the changes of vehicles in phases just ruins all future data, you move a few vehicles up or down, that is going to affect the performance of the other vehicles in the region, you add in a vehicle like a VIDAR, intentionally undertiered as usual because who cares about balance when there is money to be made, the VIDAR is going to affect the performance of all the vehicles it faces, by the time you want to move into the next phase of ‘‘decompression’’ all the stats are skewed from the previous changes.

You have to make BIG changes at once as all the current and future data is just pointless and it’s going to be an endless cycle as things will never be balanced when the small changes are going to alter performance over and over and over.

So really just the usual incompetence and ignorance that we’ve come to expect from Gaijin whilst some people pretend there’s a bigger plan behind all of it despite them not having shown any semblance of competency in the last decade in really any form, or any genuine care to improve the game beyond keeping it up at running at minimal cost to continuously farm money from a barely functional game.

[Vamilad]

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

The algorithm will detect local areas of compression automatically

Source

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

You don’t need a source for things that are evident by deductive logic. I explained an example already above:

if for example the jump from 6.0 to 7.0 is more compressed than other areas of the tree, then various 7.0 vehicles will start to get 60% win rates, and 6.0 vehicles will start to drift to 40% win rates, for example, and the algorithm will care and kick in.

YOU tell ME how that would possibly NOT be detected by the algorithm.

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

Just an example, not saying this curve accurately represents the game

This red line would cause something roughly like this for win rates, an anomaly:

Algorithm can detect then the blue anomaly, and will attempt to fix it (and mostly fail, if more room isn’t created for it to work with)

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

@Miragen

You have to make BIG changes at once as all the current and future data is just pointless and it’s going to be an endless cycle as things will never be balanced when the small changes are going to alter performance over and over and over.

I explained in my opening post how you can easily make small changes at a time, without breaking anything or any negative feedback loops. See the diagram up at the very top: by moving the entire block of vehicles above the small area you changed up by a fixed amount, that “Squeezing stuff around” effect does NOT happen, additional compression elsewhere does NOT happen, and yet you didn’t have to rebalance the entire game all in one go.

So no, “Working on small areas at a time” is not a problem at all, inherently. Doing it specifically the way gaijin is, is a problem, yes. But not in general, you CAN do small area changes at a time, without side effects. That was the whole point of the thread.

(and you should do it that way too, not just “can”, it’s less risky as a business)

[Miragen]

Your way is better than what they are doing, granted that’s an extremely low bar set by Gaijin, you’re still moving BRs around which will affect the surrounding vehicles, lineups and whatnot and impact the data before that gets addressed.

[AurenKarach]

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

it’s about clarifying a thing lots of people seem to get wrong. Including, crucially, Gaijin (i.e. not just explaining things between players, but the actual BR changing process is not proceeding logically in the first place. Worth talking about itself)

You make it sound like an unintentional mistake, but I don’t think that’s what’s happening. My entirely uncorroborated personal impression is that the total BR cap, and the BR adjustments below, are part of two separate policies, as an emergent property of how the game is structured. Without the ability to lift the ceiling, which might be tied to where they want to release Rank VIII vehicles or might be over-protectiveness of queue times, all that is left for their BR-adjusting algorithm is to move compression spots up and down based on player performance.

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

@Miragen

you’re still moving BRs around which will affect the surrounding vehicles, lineups and whatnot and impact the data before that gets addressed.

No, moving every single vehicle up from 7.0 to 11.7 by exactly 0.3 does not, in fact, affect any gameplay, and lineups, or “whatnot”. You will see a different number on your screen but otherwise be completely unaffected outside of the narrow area they specifically worked on.

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

@AurenKarach

where they want to release Rank VIII vehicles

That makes no sense as a goal in and of itself, they’re just meaningless numbers on their own. There is no value in releasing something at 12.0 vs 57.3, as an end goal.

over-protectiveness of queue times

That is at least an actual goal, but then why are they decompressing at all? That’s inherent to the very nature of decompressing. They didn’t explicitly say they were decompressing this time, but they have very recently said that they were working on that.

Without the ability to lift the ceiling, which might be tied to where they want to release Rank VIII vehicles or might be over-protectiveness of queue times, all that is left for their BR-adjusting algorithm is to move compression spots up and down based on player performance.

I agree, provided there’s that arbitrary barrier existing, then yeah, but it is just an arbitrary barrier, which could easily be removed, I’m simply describing why it should be removed. There is no reason not to do so unless they were lying about wanting to decompress, or some other something else going on that hasn’t been stated.

[MotorolaCRO]

@AurenKarach

might be over-protectiveness of queue times

This should be total bs, at least in my opinion. I highly doubt that getting the BR cap to 12.0 or 12.3 would negatively affect queue times.
In peak hours, at least on EU servers, you will get placed into a match faster than you can cancel the search, which just shows how quick the queue is.
At off-hours, you still won’t be in a queue more than 10 or 15 seconds, which is still completely fine if you ask me.

I would gladly wait even a minute so I can enjoy a well balanced match that won’t end up in curb stomping.

[Miragen]

The only way nothing is affected is when you move nothing at all, if you add extra BRs and move things to those BRs it means things are affected.

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

@Miragen

if you add extra BRs and move things to those BRs it means things are affected.

Explain how / what you think would change, then. A guy at 9.0 (i.e. not right next to the area being worked on, which is SUPPOSED to be affected) would be:

• Facing the exact same vehicles both down and up, as before

• Having the exact same wait times

• Keeping the exact same lineups, ot even a single button clicked

• Not spending so much as 1 additional SL on any training etc.

Where is the “effect” you speak of? Literally just the numbers would be higher on his screen, no actual functional difference.

[AurenKarach]

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

That makes no sense as a goal in and of itself,

Yes. And yet, I can see all sorts of reasons why corporate decision-making disconnected from the technical reality of things might see that as their preference.

I’ve seen enough of this sort of nonsense in IRL working environments not to expect it in game development too.

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

There is no value in releasing something at 12.0 vs 57.3, as an end goal.

I do think they want the numbers to stay low, though I’m not sure why. There was a thread about this on the old forum, I’ll see if I can find it.

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

I agree, provided there’s that arbitrary barrier existing,

I think so. I think the algorithm to readjust BRs does have that limitation. I don’t remember an instance of their “normal, everyday” BR balancing algorithm suggesting an overall ceiling raise, which has usually come as a result of what looks like direct dev intervention (to decompress, or introduce new vehicles, or whatever).

I don’t think the algorithm really takes compression into account. It just says “up!” or “down!” depending on a bunch of parameters, and since the compression spots keep moving, vehicles keep shuffling back and forth within the same “space”.

@MotorolaCRO

This should be total bs, at least in my opinion.

Agreed. Many suggestions players make would actually be hurtful to queue times, but this one ain’t it.
That’s why I said overprotectiveness.

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

I can see all sorts of reasons why corporate decision-making disconnected from the technical reality of things might see that as their preference.

CAN you, though? You didn’t list any…

[AurenKarach]

Sure. The following are purely hypothetical examples but all based on real-world scenarios I’ve encountered, especially in tech and consultancy, where you usually see all sorts of crazy things - like taking a working feature out of a Sailpoint corporate ID app because the document that was approved by the client was incorrectly worded, and rather than fix the mistake in the document, you traspose the mistake from the document to reality.

When you see stuff like that, it’s hard not to imagine how many countless ways you could screw this up in. Hypothetical example: because the relevant documents regarding the introduction of new content have already been approved by the leadership, and if these documents say T14 Armata (example) has to be 12.3, then that is the BR and cannot be changed until release, when it becomes purview of the standard algorithm for moving stuff up and down.

Other hypothetical example: because Gaijin isn’t willing to take even the slightest risk with queue times, and with a new BR ceiling soon to be introduced to accommodate for Rank VIII vehicles, they don’t want to have two increases to the ceiling in a small amount of time.

Other hypothetical example: they actually think compression is good as a source of player frustration (which is a big component of this game’s business model) and an encouragement to keep grinding in the hope that maybe, at the next BR, you’ll “see the light”. We’ve certainly had our fair share of bizarre statements in the past, like when they said that compression is good for the increased “diversity” of vehicles you meet.

Yet one more possibility is that this is considered important to their business strategy with regards to undertiered premium vehicles they want to be able to “sealclub” - or at least be good enough that even an inexperienced player who just bought them to skip the grind, will be able to do something in battle. Which would be harder to justify in a fully decompressed tech tree environment.

Pick a reason. They all “work”. Gaijin isn’t sharing what they think and what they’re planning in regards to overall decompression, so while I completely agree with your vision of decompression implementation, I have very little hope that we’re ever going to see it, and fear that we’re destined to see compression spots move up and down within the same “container” of BRs.

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

Rogue execs

Those are just crazy people, not actual incentives. Of course people are sometimes randomly crazy, but the story about taking a feature out for a poorly worded document is an interesting story in the first place precisely because 99% of the time, features are NOT taken out for documentation being badly worded. So it’s an interesting anomaly.

But not a reasonable thing at all to just randomly assume is going on in some company with zero evidence at all. 99% of the time, it’s not going on, without any extra reason to think it is, for any given decision or feature.

Other hypothetical example: they actually think compression is good as a source of player frustration (which is a big component of this game’s business model)

No, it’s not, it’s not a model of any game’s business model, it makes no sense why people believe that here, boggles my mind how often it comes up. Frustrating games would just be quit and lose all their players, and go out of business.

The sole point of a game is to be fun. The business model requires it being SLOW, not frustrating. Slow =/= frustrating. It needs to be SLOW + FUN to make money in freemium world.

Yet one more possibility is that this is considered important to their business strategy with regards to undertiered premium vehicles they want to be able to “sealclub”

Undertiering works exactly as well for seal clubbing in a compressed vs a decompressed world. Even if there was + or - 0 BR matchmaking, undertiered vehicles would still club. So this is a non sequitur.

[AurenKarach]

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

So it’s an interesting anomaly.

It’s not an anomaly, just one of many examples I’ve happened to run across IRL.

More specifically:

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

Those are just crazy people, not actual incentives.

That’s false. It’s not about people being crazy. Humans are incredibly prone to respond to incentives, for obvious evolutionary reasons, both negative and positive. There is a reason why we have the expression perverse incentive, the way a system is structured can incentivise behaviour that you would normally not want to incentivise.

To look at the relevant example, the client has already approved the document. A change to the document would take less time than literally taking out a feature, but the difference of course is that changing the document requires the team leaders and their project leader to talk to the client, explain the mistake, and go through the process of getting a new iteration of the document approved.

The alternative is that they can just order the cybersec engineers to implement the change so that the software reflects what’s described in the approved document. No sweat off their shoulders, what do they care?

Nothing about this is crazy. Just standard perverse incentives creating a perverse working culture.

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

But not a reasonable thing at all to just randomly assume is going on in some company with zero evidence at all.

While Gaijin is sometimes excessively criticised by the player base, I don’t think they have historically been so beyond reproach that we really have “no reason” to assume that something is screwed up in the decision-making process somewhere.

After all, buddy, you created this thread. You even designed the chart. Why do you think Gaijin hasn’t done it so far? Do you think they just don’t get it? That they’re incompetent? Because if you take out that explanation (I don’t believe they are incompetent, for the record), then from a macro POV there aren’t many potential motivations left, you realise that, right?

Either they’re actively opposed to the idea, or they have no strong feelings about it and would rather work on something else, or they are planning to do this at some point but consider it very low priority.

How many years ago did the decompression threads start? I don’t believe that Gaijin is simply unaware that the method you outline in your chart is an option. Make of that what you will.

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

Frustrating games would just be quit and lose all their players, and go out of business.

If they are 100% frustrating, sure. Not if they strike a balance between reward and frustration. That’s why I said frustration is a component, it’s obviously not the only one.

Frustration incentivises buying premium time and premium vehicles. And that’s only the most obvious instance, but there are others.

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

The sole point of a game is to be fun.

It’s to be profitable.

@A_Cute_Chihuahua

Undertiering works exactly as well for seal clubbing in a compressed vs a decompressed world. Even if there was + or - 0 BR matchmaking, undertiered vehicles would still club. So this is a non sequitur.

Discrepancies would be much more obvious. As you decompress, the margins between vehicles that face one another in the matchmaker begin to narrow, that is after all the whole point of decompression: that you don’t get a, say, 100% increase in capability by going up a single BR, but instead vehicles are more spread out and therefore closer in performance with the stuff they meet in battle. This obviously reduces the scope to which some undertiered premiums are going to sealclub.

Obvious recent example: the VIDAR at 7.7 is quite simply insane. It was transparent to everyone that it would stay there for a while and then move up. But in a decompressed scenario, maybe even at a BR equivalent to the current 7.7 it wouldn’t get to meet WW2 vehicles at all. So while problematic and still requiring being moved up, it would have been less egregious. And thus, maybe, sold less.

[A_Cute_Chihuahua]

??

[AurenKarach]

I think the forum is having technical issues. It is not showing my full reply…