If you can get something through in game means without paying, I don’t really see it as a clear P2W.
Expert/Ace crews are flirting with P2W much more than let’s say bushes. Things like those are just a borderline acceptable ways to promote something as pay2progress.
Because it is not P2W but P2P (Pay to progress)
Yeah, that’s why I mentioned it in my second paragraph.
Again?
Do we have to do that LOL example again…
Do we have to count the hours again…
Do we have to go through history once again?
Again, it is P2P not P2W
Most of the time in War Thunder it’s pay to make your grind and gameplay smoother and more comfy.
The paid features you mentioned do provide some advantages, but not “massive” enough like you said to impact game outcomes in 16 vs. 16 battles with players of similar skill levels. Skilled paying players could stomp the whole enemy team likewise using their experience and game knowledge without bushes, crew skills, or backups when there’s a large skill disparity.
My take is that these features help to convert competitive players who want to invest time and effort into War Thunder into actual paying players.
More like P2E
Pay to enjoy
What we have in the game is still P2P. The system is still pretty taxing on the player though.
Yeah I’ve decided to look at it lol his T-55AM and TO-55 has 0.5 KD like what, why that brother gotta
Sort of on topic, but does anyone actually grind heli mods and not just GE them? I can’t even imagine right now, feels like something you grind millions of RP for the priviledge of spending 30-40 dollars to make it usable after you spend 1 million SL and unlock it.
Better categorize p2p below p2w
I’m unlocking helicopter parts playing GRB, and it’s a real pain, the parts cost like 28,000 or 32,000 and many times killing 2 or 3 enemies will pay you at most 1200. Gaijin has gone crazy with the points needed to unlock helicopter parts, either they cut the points needed by almost half, or the helicopters give double the XP.
Besides ground gains being awful in general your rewards per vehicle are capped based on how long you stay alive which for helis is kinda bad at least for the majority of players.
Most rp ive gotten for a single TT vehicle is like 6k, and that was a 9 kill game recently where that vehicle survived around 8-10 minutes, also with premium.
For helicopters without CCIP, you’ll spend weeks trying to grind for modules. Its a little bit easier to do with helis that have rocket CCIP but you’re better off spending GE if you wanna keep your sanity intact. Heli PvE is the only place where you can get a decent amount of RP without worrying about SPAA or planes vaporizing you but you still have to worry about greedy teammates and barely enough targets to go around. In ground, its very map-dependent.
This was from a ground RB match and I still got pretty much nothing from it with a talisman and a premium account. Its doable but damn is it monotonous and frustrating.
Naw I 100% agree that I suck a ground. I only play it for helicopters.
I told everybody to lay down arms and let me eliminate them. I offered all of the opponent team free beer. I really thought pay2win would work.
It failed
Conclusion - there is no pay 2 win here.
I’d argue that bushes are pay2win
You can obtain them in BP though…
In general P2W in WT doesn’t exist. That’s one of the good facts.
Pay to progress faster , or pay to do what you want instantly is though.
The problem is that they push it and they shouldn’t.
I’d also argue that any form of pay to progress is also a kind of pay to win.
If a free to play user goes into the game, plays for a week, can they compete vs a premium user?
The game won’t allow it due to BR limitation but it’s clear who the winner would be. In that sense, the game is very much pay to win.
Pace and means of acquisition matter.
I have a premium Mustang Mk Ia. I am nowhere near a 5/5 crew in it and especially nowhere near an ace crew despite hundreds of thousands of RP gained and dozens of hours in cockpit.
Look at the amount of RP needed to get maxed G/Stamina. Multiply these by 100 basically for SB/RB)
In my non-premium Bf109F4, maximum RP I can gain is 2500 per 15 minutes assuming I RTB and land safely, 2000 if I only die after 15 minutes pass. Calculate the amount of time that 2000/2500 RP/15 minutes takes to earn 5142 crew skill points (so 5142000 RP)
My premium british mustang can earn ~4500 RP/15 minutes without RTB, 5700 RP/15 minutes with RTB.
So roughly half the time the Bf109F4 takes me.
Difference between level 2 G/stamina vs 5/5 + expert is=
(I removed G suit for these tests. Used F4U-4 because it’s not gonna stall from AoA nor rip)
2+2 Noob crew passes out after ~ 20 seconds (generously rounded up) at 5.5Gs
5+5 Expert crew can sustain 5.5G indefinitely.
With an ace crew, you could even do 6.1G before exceeding your maximum tolerance.
Time it takes to go from 2+2 to 5+5 with bf109 is (2571*2-(22+64+110+160)*2)*100 = 443000
Bf109F4 no RTB (/2000 * 15 / 60): 55 hours
Bf109F4 with RTB: 44 hours
Mustang Ia no RTB: 24 hours
Mustang Ia no RTB: 19 hours.
Now, you do get to save crew slot and reuse it so this is a once per crew slot grind.
Still, given the way levels require more and more RP to unlock and the sheer amount of time even with what is perfect gameplay (Every 15 minutes we get 1050 or higher score and never ever die), it takes an absurd amount of time to be able to fly your plane on par with your opponents doing the exact same maneuvers at the exact same conditions in the exact same plane. Even a premium plane with very high economic modifiers for a rank 3 is at a significant disadvantage for a LOT of matches.
And we havn’t even spoken of ace crews yet. I cannot provide data comparison there as I am yet to unlock one. However, I recall something like 750k RP needed for my Mustang Ia to unlock an ace crew, and I make at most ~20-23k RP per hour doing my best (4500 or 5600 RP per 15 mins x 4).
As for the battlepass -
The battlepass itself is impossible to progress unless you’re willing to give up your autonomy and fun for ~2-3 hours each day chasing absurd tasks that your tech tree and favourite BR range may not even be able to complete or is completely incompatible with how matches are done in your favourite game mode.
If I was going for BP tasks, I would be unable to play prop tier ASB due to how the daily 2 tasks are structured (you cannot start a new BP task without leaving the lobby you’re in, and the lobby you’re in may take 90-120 minutes to conclude - so you can end up more than satisfying medium/hard task for a day and not get credit due to only playing a single lobby). Even more so, a lot of the challenges outright don’t allow completion in ASB.
“You can obtain it in-game” only counts if the means of acquisition are reasonable and accessible at the level of play expected. Like, 40 hours to get an expert crew would be fine if it only mattered for jets, but it very much matters as low as 3.0-5.7 especially if you fly aircraft that rely on descending spirals and high speed scissors to win dogfights.
Starting a new tech tree is legit suffering because of how crew skills are implemented.
Guys.
P2W is when you get an in-game advantage with money that can not be obtained with just playing the game.
P2W , Warthunder it is not.
Now , i can agree with you that the progression system is one of the worse you may find in a game, that they over-push the limits of not being P2W yet you’ll put money in the game out of boredom or frustration…
and in general… The only reason to play the game are the vehicles and personally i just play because there is not another game like WT. I don’t like Gj. I don’t like how they operate, i don’t like how they treat their playerbase and even their own game (that could be the best ever etc.) …
So , it’s not like i am a supporter of their methods.
