at least 50% of the replies to this are going to be:
“it’s not pay to win, it’s pay to /similar term/, because of this very flimsy reason”
The fundamental fact that you can exchange money for player power is the definition of P2W, regardless of whether you can achieve those things through time or not.
Certainly.Stopped paying a while ago and the game has ground to a virtual halt mid BR.
Spending the game just running around on an unmodded vehicle without a fire extinguisher or means to repair and I have a whole fleet like that to upgrade.No thanks, just cant be bothered.
You’re literally describing P2W. Just because they also monetise progression doesn’t mean they’re not selling player power for money.
You’ll lose games because you don’t have an extinguisher for x games, but you can get one for money. Therefore P2W.
Whaat?
You don’t love things like stock APCR, not being able to repair or put out fires?
No way.
The entire game is designed like a cashmachine due to players spending money in frustration
T-55AM, Sea Vixen, 2S38, T29, SAV, TAM2IP
This just isn’t true. And a lot of those that aren’t currently super powerful were at release. This is the standard free to play monetisation model for this sort of game, you release OP vehicles, sell via FOMO, nerf over time, release more vehicles. WG does the exact same thing.
You literally don’t understand plain English.I stated that the development is indeed retarded by not having a premium account.No amount of money will stop you going out in a Premium vehicle with everything spaded and coming last in the game with zero kills.You cant buy a good game in this game.Spend all you want ,you will have good games and bad ones regardless of if you spend or not.
Shame it took me so long to realise it. Gaijin laughs : )
I guess we finally discovered that the game was created to generate money. Who would have thought?
It all depends on what you expect in a “free lunch” game. If you hope for a five star 3 course menue, think again.
This is (after reading the whole thread) imho a major and highly important factor but (almost) nobody talks about.
So whilst gaijin creates the possibility to win 1 vs 1s with real money (mostly crew points and/or certain premium aircraft after launch until they nerf them later) by exchanging time with money, the (unknown) features within the MM are preventing quite effectively that the money you have invested has an actual impact on winning a match. You just increase your chances to a certain degree, at least for a certain time.
Over the years i saw countless threads about increasing number of downtiers after buying a certain premium product (at least at the beginning) - or an increase of uptiers when premium time was not renewed.
Have a good one!
Off course Gaijin are making it easier to progress with money.
Quite a lot of the free to play crowd seems to think that the people at Gaijin works for free and the servers are free and everything involved making the game is free as well.
It’s fair enough you don’t want to spend money on the game, but then you HAVE to accept other people might progress faster than you.
If it wasn’t so, there wouldn’t be a reason for people spending money on the game, and the game will close.
It’s that simple.
I think WT is not more or less P2W than any other game out there.
None of the premiums will grant you unlimited wins, nor has ever been a guarantee to win. Worse, some premiums are just so bad that they are not worth the pennies spent.
Yes, using premiums you can advance in the tech tree faster, investing into GE you advance faster. Thats left to the individual player how fast he wanna grind the tree.
I got a few premiums, yes, but that did not generally help me. Punctually, yes. P16 fo instance, I bought only for the sake of having this lovely Swiss aircraft. Reality, I seldom use it. Maybe once in two month …
In the end, you still got to play wisely and be lucky that MM gives you a decent team
I cannot think of any respectable PvP game, both F2P and Buy-to-Play or Subscribe-toPlay where your out-of-match account state has any impact on your in-match capabilities.
Different rosters? Sure. But those units in the roster have the same capability.
Paygating rosters, while possible to be done in a scummy way (release broken, then nerf) is fine.
Making units within the roster have different capabilities whether you pay or not (and 1 mil RP to get same capability is absurd)
League had such a mechanic (Rune pages) that was thankfully excised from existence. It was severely criticized for it while it existed. Now you get all runes at level 1, and only thing you can buy/unlock is more pre-set slots.
Maybe I don’t understand you right but, your account status has no influence on the match but your earnings.
CoD premium account earns more than non payed.
Payed clothing and gimmicks can help to camouflage you better.
Premium accounts has access to premium vehicles and weapons
WoT or WoWs have premium vehicles which gives you bretter earings and hell these vehicles have influence on the match play. See Tirpitz. Is a 70 bucks premium which is very OP.
So, one could call CoD, WoT, WoWs a Pay-2-win game too, based on your criterias
The basic concept of playing video games with a grinding part is either to invest time or money to progress. Nobody questions this.
This whole thread deals with the distinction of p2w or p2progress - and if you can actually buy advantages with money which are not available for f2p players.
Technically seen we had until last year even a p2play scenario - as gaijin became to greedy - so the players spending time AND money saw no real value of their investments as the progress was especially at higher tiers way below of rather reasonable player expectations.
Regarding your opinion about f2p:
F2P is the preferred appearance of games designed to earn money with kids. By choosing f2p they circumvent the entry barrier of a full price video game - to reach out to a larger audience; so the goal is to maximize income / revenues.
Approving payments /purchases of 4 x 30$ for your kid is way easier than approving 80-120 $ at once (= less questions), that’s why the market for video games designed to attract minors and earn money with mini- or micro transactions is the most important.
F2p mobile games are dominating the market compared to pc or console games as an additional entry barrier (PC or console) is not in place as everybody has a smartphone.
Therefore the games are designed to create demand for in-game purchases whilst playing them. So players unable or unwilling to spend money (and can not be motivated to change their mind) play no role. They produce also no costs as the scale effect in MMOs makes them not relevant. Those players fulfill 2 roles: 1. Filling lobbies and subsequently: 2. Increase the number of targets for paying customers.
In Warthunder, you can purchase crew skills.
Crew skills take an enormous amount of time to unlock.
Getting maxed G/Stamina is 500K RP in RB/ASB. Keen vision and Awareness - things you’d assume to be irrelevant to ASB but apparently they determine render distances and cause planes to phase out of existence while hunting or even dogfighting - takes another 500K to max.
After maxing these and experting your crew (which might require more grinding as my rank VII plane takes a Crew level of 30 to expert, you can then begin working on acing it it. This takes…
F4U-4: 280K RP
F3H-2: 890K RP
F8E: 1,080K RP.
Now, by the time you unlock your first jet you likely have maxed your G/stamina, but that still leaves the acing (and the enormous SL cost of experting).
Take P-51-D5s. Rank 3 aircraft.
One is flown by a new player (or a veteran player starting america) ground either with premium acc or normal acc normally.
One is flown by someone who flew the P-51-D-5 for hundreds of battles (at minimum, using ASB rates and assuming it gives similar reward as Bf109F4 given similar RP modifier - 10% difference - ~2200 RP per 15 minute with landing - 320K/2.2k*15 /60= 36 hours)
One is flown by a new player who spent a bunch of golden eagles on crew XP and instant acing.
The second player’s 36 hours is equivalent to the third player who immediately bought it.
Taking the P-51-D5 and making a split S at 580 km/h TAS at 4 KM barometric altitude inflicts around 6-7 Gs from my WTRTI testing with “load factor” displayed.
The first guy flying the P-51D-5 has a “Peak G” of 4.5 without crew skills trained. I’ve a “veteran starting new nation” plane in form of my bf109F4 that has some crew skills trained. My Bf109F4 can sustain 4.8Gs unexpected, 5.4 with expert. This is level 2 G/Stamina. This is equivalent to ~70K RP. Notice how this is nowhere near the 500K total we need for the rest. Level 2.5G/stamina will cost 40K RP, level 3.0 (including the level 2.5 step) will cost 98K RP. Do you see the issue?
Now, my experted & maxed crew can sustain 5.9G. This took me 500K RP to get PLUS a pretty hefty SL tax (I can’t even afford to expert my F3H-2, F8U-2 and F8E because experting the F3H-2 costs 450K SL.).
With Ace, it goes up to 6.2 if I ever get it. For my F4U-4, it will be 280K RP and… ±10% RP as Bf109F4 which has data for me on hand, that’s going to be 280k/2.2k*15/60 = 31 hours. Of Flying nothing but the corsair and always getting at least 600 score and making it back to my runway and landing and thus never ever dying.
Now, is “0.3 G” a significant amount? On its own, no. With Stamina? Very much yes. Stamina makes a big difference for your maneuver when you exceed your max G. It gives you a lot of leeway to over-G and not pass out immediately.
Now back to the P-51-D5.
Our first guy engages another player, gets on their tail in a dive and their target inverts and makes a split S to lose them. Our first guy follows, since they are familiar with this maneuver and have zero issues following enemy aircraft doing this in their main nation (in my example: P-51 cannonstang being the plane I never had over-G issues doing split S chases as I can sustain 5.9G with a lot of stamina, while my Bf109F-4 can only sustain 5.4G). Our first guy passes out (but even before passing out, the screen turning black makes tracking their opponent much harder, if not borderline impossible. I don’t get vignettes at all in my experted max crew doing it in a G-suitless plane at the same Gs and time under G). Passing out, they proceed to fly straight and be helpless to fight back as their target loops around and either shoots them down, or simply finds a blindspot the first guy cannot find them in.
Second/third player: They execute the same maneuver and have zero hint of vignette and maintain control of their aircraft throughout the whole high-G turn using the exact same aircraft against the exact same opponent in the exact same circumstances.
Now, you might say “Well, second player never paid a dime!” and that’s true.
However, for the first player to be on par with the second player in terms of how their unit behaves in a pvp game, they must play that unit for… 500K/2.2K*15/60 = 56 hours, where each next step of improving the unit takes longer and longer. Getting to level 2 G/stamina only took 71K RP, getting to level 3 takes 98K RP on top of that. And we havn’t talked about the rendering being tied to this broken system at all yet! See previous calculations for how long that takes (it comes out around 9K/hour with generous up-rounding).
I’ve had a very recent match where crew skill came up. Was diving with an XP-50 at 600 km/H and the XP-50 suddenly pulled up and I pulled with them. My lvl 2 stam/g-force unexperted bf109F4 promptly blacked out while the XP-50 flew around unbothered.
In no respectable PvP game do you ever get this level of disparity.
My problem isn’t the blacking out. It’s that one player blacks out, the other doesn’t solely due to their account status outside a match (there’s no G-suit modification in this matchup to complicate things either)
MMOs are going out of their way to take the grind out of their PvP arenas and give characters participating either equal stats, or pre-made builds with pre-made equipment.
LoL got rid of its rune pages. It still retains premium access to roster which is fine as long as done properly.
AoE2:DE has premium rosters that perform the same regardless of who uses it the same way. MWO (at least in 2016) simply had premium rosters - same mech & loadout performed the same no matter who drove it.
TF2/Overwatch/Dota2/America’s Army variants/ have zero disparity beyond cosmetics.
Movie Battles 2 is Purchase to play and has zero “Out of match” impact on how you play in-match. Same for RO2, Insurgency. I’m bringing these up because you brought up CoD.
Darker and Darker has no out-of-match premium status affecting in-match performance.
i know all of that.
I just adresses the free to play people who expect to have the same gaming experience as the people who are spending money.
Nothing grinds my gear more when i hear someone blaming other people who have spend money on this game.
NOTHING is free in this world, and if 70% of the playerbase don’t spend money, it’s the 30% who are savning the game.
So don’t effing blame people for spending money on the game, with out those people, there wouldn’t be a game.
BUT i do agree Gaijin have been rough lately and the prices are insane, but i guess its better to sell 1000 vehicles at insane prices than 10.000 at reasonable prices (in Gaijins world)
Good - but why are you posting stuff like this:
Gaming experience is related to the fun whilst playing the game. No serious person expects to have any form of comparable progress or income without premium products.
The complains you are referring to are mainly based on the fact that most of the premium product users either progressed way too fast (so that the necessary skills to use them properly are not developed) or they simply have no clue how to use them. So it is from my pov a matter of skill and not money.
If you would have really understood the concept of f2p you would have not written anything about saving the game. The game is designed for paying players and not for f2p players. So whilst f2p games have usually way lower ratios of non-paying players their ratio is irrelevant - and no paying player saves the game, they just fulfil their purpose.
Same as claiming that without paying players there wouldn’t be a game. It was a conscious decision to use the f2p design approach (=trading the projected income of a full price game with half price updates vs the potentially higher income of f2p game with in-game purchases). So the duty of the devs is to provide enough demand for their products.
Here i agree.
No matter what mode or BR you play the value for money balance is getting worse every year. And the clear pattern that newly presented premium vehicles get nerfed after a certain period makes it rather pointless to invest money in significant quantity.
I have seen way to many people calling people out, calling them “pay to win” and stuff like that because they are in a premium vehicle, and not because of their skill, so my point still stand.
Fair enough.
It’s pay to have an advantage