Uptier and why it does not fit in game anymore

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@Panther2995

You cant, if both pilots has similiar experience then a pilot with better aircraft will always win

No,… again, no,…

If both have same experience, you still don’t account for the fact that aircraft differences gives opportunity in both sides.

You’d say that basic performances at same experiences is giving an edge, and you’d be right, if you didn’t account for those differences to become a double edgesword,…

See for exemple the BR 1.0/reserve vs 2.0 planes.
You’ll say that those 2.0 should be unbeatable.

But if the guy in biplane was able to get himself behind you, you have no way out.

Engine of this era ain’t that good enough to pull you out of nimble and lightweight Biplanes.

Same goes for any other aircrafts.

Flying characteristics are only numbers, and it’s the way we use those numbers that makes us able to kill.

For another exemple, i played recently in Bf-109C-1, while not being the best Bf-109 ofthe line i fought against F4U-1a, which is More powerful, faster, better climbing aircraft (despite is weight) and having more guns of higher caliber.
In results: i was not the one to take a bath in the Channel,…

And this is true for EVERY fighters/small attackers aircrafts.

@Panther2995

And how do you plan to overcome your weakness if your enemy has similiar experience while sitting in better vehicle? Simply you cant.

By using my knowledge of my aircraft, and his.

With all his might and experience, the fact that he is playing a higher BR aircraft will make him think to be like those Hollywood pilots (unable to be killed).

Definelty why & when aircrafts differences matters in the way you use them.

Would you take a P-47D/F4U in a turnfight with a Bf-109C? You can say no here,… but in all honesty you’re going to do it in the game because “i have better aircraft”

No one is out of mistakes, from newbs to pros.

And no one can say that it is impossible to outplay, or engage higher BR aircrafts (which basically needs quite the same amount of bullet to be killed)

[Cpt_Bel_V]

Funny thing → For RB games
MiG-21F-13: i’m at 2 KD you’re at 0.6KD
MiG-19PT: i’m at 2.4KD you’re at 0.6 KD
F-4C: i’m at 1.6KD you stand at 0.5KD
F-4E: i’m at 1.7 KD you stand at 0.7KD
F-100D: i have 1.8KD, you have 0.7 KD
F-84B-26: i have 1.6 KD you have 0.6KD
F-80A5 [old P-80A] : i’m at 1 KD you have 0.7KD
P-51D-5: i’m at 1.1, you’re at 0.7KD
P-47D-25 : i’m at 1.1, you’re at 0.4KD

Let’s go on your F-104A you play since it is down to 9.3 BR → you have 1.5 KD
i have 2.2KD made in the hell of 10.0 BR.

I’m not taking on the easiest aircraft to play, or those underrated, but when i check on your abilities, it seems you currently lack behind

You’re saying that i should see a R-60 up my ass? When/where? For that you need to be able to have me in your hud at respectable range.

Same goes for the R-3S on my MiG-21F-13.

If MiG-21SMT currently sits at 10.3, it’s because you guys are too bad with that.

Again–> aircrafts differences matters when you know how to use them.
(And you don’t know how to use them as it seems)
(Reporting facts,… great)

[Panther2995]

@Cpt_Bel_V

No,… again, no,…

If both have same experience, you still don’t account for the fact that aircraft differences gives opportunity in both sides.

i do.

Tell me what can possibly you can do against F-15 in Mirage F1C? You cant do nothing.

@Cpt_Bel_V

But if the guy in biplane was able to get himself behind you, you have no way out.

Which means you already did a mistake and your opponent used it for his own advantage, not the same thing.

@Cpt_Bel_V

while not being the best Bf-109 ofthe line i fought against F4U-1a, which is More powerful, faster, better climbing aircraft (despite is weight) and having more guns of higher caliber.
In results: i was not the one to take a bath in the Channel,…

Which means enemy pilot doesnt have any skill level to compete against you, thanks for proving my point.

@Cpt_Bel_V

By using my knowledge of my aircraft, and his.

With all his might and experience, the fact that he is playing a higher BR aircraft will make him think to be like those Hollywood pilots (unable to be killed).

And what makes you think every pilot who has better aircraft will act like that?

@Cpt_Bel_V

Would you take a P-47D/F4U in a turnfight with a Bf-109C? You can say no here,… but in all honesty you’re going to do it in the game because “i have better aircraft”

Thats a very restricted vision, personally i would do BNZ and you could do nothing against me in your BF-109C.

@Cpt_Bel_V

And no one can say that it is impossible to outplay, or engage higher BR aircrafts (which basically needs quite the same amount of bullet to be killed)

Never said it was, as i mentioned before if both pilots has same skill level then the one with better plane will come out on top.

İf you claim otherwise im always here to test your claim, you can bring your Mirage F1 and i will bring my F-15.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@Panther2995

Tell me what can possibly you can do against F-15 in Mirage F1C? You cant do nothing.

I had one fun custom game once,… in A-10A,… a much slower and much incompetent Air-air aircraft, got a dual with a F-15A and won 5-2 ^^"

So with engine power and Magic-2, you say i can’t do shit? ^^"

@Panther2995

Which means you already did a mistake and your opponent used it for his own advantage, not the same thing.

and what you should then see, is that i pushed you to do a mistake at that point.

Experience or not, i did it thanks to flight abilities and playing against yours ^^"

@Panther2995

Which means enemy pilot doesnt have any skill level to compete against you, thanks for proving my point.

Proving what point?
The guy was pretty good, as it was 1vs1 at the end of the game,… and did got 6 kills overall on that game.

The guy played well, but ended up in the water, no skill issue, just a different use of Flying abilities.

@Panther2995

And what makes you think every pilot who has better aircraft will act like that?

It even happens to myself, as much as my ego tells me that 95% of WT Players are worse than what i do, it still happens that i got rekt by a Lvl 40 in dowtiered aircraft, simply because i thought it was going to be easy.

@Panther2995

Thats a very restricted vision, personally i would do BNZ and you could do nothing against me in your BF-109C.

That’s fine, you play on normal.
But i love beingthe chased one ^^" (ngl, it happens too many times that a BNZ dedicated players ends up in turnfight with me ^^")

@Panther2995

Never said it was, as i mentioned before if both pilots has same skill level then the one with better plane will come out on top.

You never said it, but OP (which have bad stats outside of underrated aircrafts) basically said that, and that’s why i’m saying this is wrong.

As you’re wrong thinking an F.1 can’t do shit vs F-15A,… or any other kind of unequal match up.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

The whole game is based on situations you entering the fight in,… and about how people will then react to the situation.

Iran F-14 pilots thoughts to be unbeatable, yet they got shot down too,… so it’s not impossible.

[Panther2995]

@Cpt_Bel_V

I had one fun custom game once,… in A-10A,… a much slower and much incompetent Air-air aircraft, got a dual with a F-15A and won 5-2 ^^"

Oh let me guess F-15 pilot made a mistake and A-10 used it for his own advantage.

@Cpt_Bel_V

So with engine power and Magic-2, you say i can’t do shit? ^^"

You have zero engine power compare to F-15 and has less 6 missiles compare to it(not gonna count R530F’s since those are shit).

@Cpt_Bel_V

and what you should then see, is that i pushed you to do a mistake at that point.

And what makes you think you can push ever single enemy out there? A good pilot will always see your moves and counter it easily, especially if he sits in better plane.

@Cpt_Bel_V

The guy was pretty good, as it was 1vs1 at the end of the game,… and did got 6 kills overall on that game.

İf he managed to loose against BF-109C in F4U that means he wasnt a good pilot.

6 kills on one match doesnt determine how good he is, especially if its a lower br.

@Cpt_Bel_V

It even happens to myself, as much as my ego tells me that 95% of WT Players are worse than what i do, it still happens that i got rekt by a Lvl 40 in dowtiered aircraft, simply because i thought it was going to be easy.

And thats why not bein arrogant is always the most important factor in warthunder.

That is also reason why always apporach my enemies with caution every single time.

@Cpt_Bel_V

But i love beingthe chased one ^^" (ngl, it happens too many times that a BNZ dedicated players ends up in turnfight with me ^^")

Thats their fault on that part, if your plane excels at something you should use it for your own advantage.

@Cpt_Bel_V

As you’re wrong thinking an F.1 can’t do shit vs F-15A,… or any other kind of unequal match up.

İm simply correct wanna compare both planes?
Mirage F-1 has:

-2 Magic’s
-256 countermeasures
-Very bad RWR
-Useless radar missiles because they love to go to chaff
-Lacks acceleration and climb rate
-Has radar that doesnt work as good as F-15’s.
-Cannot hold its speed unlike F-15
-Doesnt have enough top speed to catch F-15

and lets look at what does F-15 have:

-Has insane acceleration and climb rate
-Has 240 countermeasures
-Has more missiles that actually work most of the time
-Better Top speed
-Much better RWR wich gives insane situational awareness compare to Mirage F1
-Much better radar
-Better energy retention and its very agile at both low and high speed.

Results are pretty clear, only way to beat F-15 in Mirage F1 is either caught F-15 off guard or lure him into trap and force him to make mistake, otherwise you basically have zero chance.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

So,… you wanna side on OP by saying current game matchmaking is not working correctly because +0.7/+1.0 aircrafts are always going to be beast?

Come on,… if you really do play this game correctly, you’d know there is not a general problem as OP showed, but singular irregularities(F-15A at 12.3 is also an irregularity) made for people to buy premium, or spent time on some vehicules.

Game is not giving you invulnerability.

[Beeschurger]

@Panther2995

Has radar that doesnt work as good as F-15’

AFAIK it has MTI and if its anything like Mig23s then its not halfway bad.

At least when compared to year ago lmao.

[SPANISH_AVENGER]

…and we got a winner for the most toxic player on this thread so far!

Anyone who unironically says “sKiLl IsSuE” is toxic by default, but… when you combine that, with the context and subject matter at hand, and with all those “ME SO GOOD, ME SO GREAT, YOU BAD”-like comments to bellitle and mock other players while ignoring perfectly legitimate issues…

Damn.

Look, no one here cares that you are “such a pro”. You get 17 nukes a day with M22 against Strv 122s? Congratulations, no one cares, and you don’t get to insult others unable to do so or belittling them for “being noobs”.

No one here is asking for “easy matches” and no one here wants to be “super E-Sports professional pro of pros who can get nukes while being underdog”. All people are asking here is for the competitive game to have objective balance between opponents and counterparts.

Elitists like this, who look down on everyone else and believe they have the right to be toxic towards others over WRs, nukes, kills, stats or whatever, are a disease to videogame communities. I understand that your whole life resolves around “being good” in a videogame, but that doesn’t make you better than everyone else or anyone at all- in fact, that’s only sad, so stop pretending to be superior or entitled to talk down on others.

And sorry for if I sound mean here. I always try to be nice, but seeing stuff like this grinds my gears.

[Morvran]

After trying some 9.3/9.7 ARB over the weekend. Something I havent done in a while because I normally play ASB (where uptiers are essentially impossible). It fricking sucked.

Every. Single. Match. I was uptiered to fight 10.3s. It was actually impossible. Hunter F6 with no CMs vs F-5Cs and A-10s, etc. I was destroyed everytime.

There either needs to be some kind of “bad luck protection” where you are guaranteed a downtier or at least not a full uptier, once every 5 matches or something or, better yet. ARB and maybe even GRB, to adopt the same kind of BR Brackets we have in ASB.

Which looks like this:

The advantage of this system is that “meta” aircraft are not decided by popularity or RNG. But change every 48 hours. This “unlocks” more aircraft to be usable and previously semi-DOA aircraft have a chance to shine.

Hunter F6 is basically DOA in ARB because you only fight 10.3s. But did some matches yesterday with it in a 8.7-9.7 bracket in ASB and was really fun and strong. You can choose what to fly and fight against before hitting play.

[Vamilad]

The issue of uptiers was never vehicles facing “better” vehicles. It’s vehicles facing technology from different eras.

A tank with no stabilizer no range finder facing a tank with a laser range finder and gen 2 thermals.

A tank whose mobility justified its lighter armor facing a tank with matching mobility while being more armored than the nation’s same BR vehicle.

The way to fix this is BR decompression, but Gaijin is hesitant to balance the game as it would make certain nations which sell premiums much worse.

[Real_K_Soze]

@SPANISH_AVENGER

You are right. I love facing 1979 SU-25s armed with 1982 R-60Ms with a… (checks notes) machine gun only-armed F-86F Sabre from the late 1940s!

Despite i liked your post: This is technically seen wrong as the first production F-models were built in 1952. The lack of cannons within the USAF fighters was homemade, the USN used 20mm cannons…

The rest of your post is (ofc) fine and i share your general view on things. I would recommend to add this “Cpt” guy to your ignore list, at the end of the day he is just providing fact-free opinions and excels in trolling.

Imho the best example of an absolute hopeless uptier is a 3.3 Sakeen vs a 4.3 Yak-3. So even if there are in theory just 4 of them in the other team it shows for props in Air RB that this theoretical claim “a vehicle has even in a full uptier a realistic fighting chance” by gaijin is absolute nonsense.

[Panther2995]

İm not saying that because human factor is always determines how each vehicle perform in this game.

Thats why some vehicles are undertiered despite it should be the opposite.

[Panther2995]

@Beeschurger

AFAIK it has MTI and if its anything like Mig23s then its not halfway bad.

At least when compared to year ago lmao.

Compare to F-15 radar its quite bad.

Not to mention current F-15 radar still lacks TWS mode but even then it surprass Mirage F1 radar quite easily.

[C0caC0laEspuma]

Funny thing → For RB games

F-86F-40: I’m at 4.8 KD on TT variant but you’re at 2.9KD on premium one
F-86F-2: I’m at 6.8KD you’re 1.4
F-5E: i’m at 4.5KD you’re at 3.1 KD
La-15: i’m at 5.5KD on La-174 which is almost same plane but you stand at almost 1KD
MiG-17: i’m at 4.5 KD on russian one you stand at 1.3KD
F-84G: i have 5.3KD, you have 3.4 KD
S.O.8000: i’m at 3.8, you’re at almost 1.8KD
P-47D-28 : i’m at 9.6 on German one but, you’re at 1.1KD

I’m not taking on the “easiest” aircraft to play, or those underrated, but when i check on your abilities, it seems you currently lack behind.

I’m sorry to say that but, stats on this game says nothing anymore because you can padding ur stats if you farmed AI planes.

[Oskar_Schindler]

lol well done with the misleading KD values using only veichles i tried for like 20 games and didn’t even got upgrades on
you really think you are going to kill me with mig21f13 if i use smt? why instead of making KD data we don’t do a 1v1 with those planes so you can show everyone there that uptier isn’t a problem at all? but while we do 1v1 another person should have the mission of randomly attack one of us randomly to simulate the activity of a battle with like 40 players, so while you do your crazy manouvers to avoid my r60 you die anyway because someone else clap you because you lost all the speed, Sounds an appealing experience?

[C0caC0laEspuma]

As for people bringing in meta vehicles, this may also be an advantage, depending on point of view.

If you take the old 9.0BR matchmakers as an example, the F-2 Sabre, MiG-17, Hunter F.1, CL-13, and F-40 Sabre were the meta vehicles at the time and worked very well as counterparts to each other. If people bring them in the game, they can balance them out in a way.

Since those meta vehicles will not suffer from the uptier, Gaijin will have far more accurate vehicle stats in balance than it does current days, and their BR changes may be better.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

You’re even more proving my point that op have skill issue and is just unable to think how to fly,…

You can’t fly any aircraft braindeadly and after come and say that Uptier sucks,…

[C0caC0laEspuma]

Yes uptier is actually bad cuz there are nothing I can do when I play Hunter F.1 and face against MiG-19.

ig u are replying to wrong dude

[Cpt_Bel_V]

No i reply to you, since you compared you’re stats to mine, after i did the same with Thread Author