I did not say “invincible”. I said you can’t pen the hull when properly angled, which is factually true. You keep claiming that people should just “shoot it in the hull” which simply won’t work in many instances. Not just due to angling because you can also use cover to hide parts of it.
A not completely horrible player won’t sit still but adjust his angle to your movement.
It has excellent armor. Doesn’t mean it should be frontally invulnerable. The guy played it like an idiot, driving into an open field without any cover and not aware of me. Yet I still had to rely on a cupola shot to take him out.
It has nothing to do with it being impossible. You want to take an important weakspot away from a tank that is already heavily favored in this matchup. There is no need to make the Tiger an even better tank, it’s already very good. The same is true for a lot of other vehicles with strong frontal armor profile. Since you seem to like chess analogies, you want to change the game so that one side starts with three pieces less on the board and then claim that complaining about that is not warranted since you can still win if you get lucky or your opponent is far less capable than you are.
Those people are insane, as long as there’s a single pixel you can pen on their tank they will claim to have “no armor”. They just hope this change will make the enemy stop cleaning the floor with their face but there’s no saving for them.
It’s far better to move 10 meters to the side and shoot the massive hull, than to shoot at the cupola.
You can also just hold your fire and wait for him to expose himself to you, if you haven’t been spotted.
A not completely horrible player won’t get spotted or will immobilize the enemy. A not completely horrible player will hide when he sees an angled Tiger turning his turret towards him and will peek from a different angle, unseen while relocating.
That’s my whole point, it does mean exactly that, it should be frontally invulnerable to inferior tanks 1 full BR lower. It’s a 6.7 heavy tank meeting a 5.7 medium tank.
You still can easily kill the T26E5 in the side, it has 76mms on the side. It’s a huge area to hit, that guarantees a one shot.
I could call you an idiot, if you were to engage a heavy tank frontally with a medium tank that is 1 full BR lower. What doesn’t allow me to do that is the fact that you did it while he wasn’t looking at you/didn’t see you.
For the record the T26E5 played like an idiot for obvious reasons.
The whole point of heavy tanks is to use your armor. Armor is not supposed to be a backup for a heavy tank, it’s supposed to be a tool. You shouldn’t need cover, you are the cover.
The skill in playing a heavy tank is to use your armor, but not get overwhelmed by an enemy that can outmaneuver you, especially when there’s more than 1 enemy, even if you have an equal amount of friendlies. It’s also about positioning yourself in such a way, to mitigate your poor mobility. Heavy tanks were designed for frontal engagements and don’t really have much more options than that.
Heavy tanks were always supposed to have a high skill floor and low skill ceiling. The faster the tank, the lower the skill floor and the higher the skill ceiling. Just because a bad player in a heavy tank will do better, than a bad player in a medium or a light tank, doesn’t mean that this heavy tank is a better tank overall.
You can’t comprehend that a light tank, a medium tank and a heavy tank can be completely different in playstyle, yet balanced. You want all tanks to have the exact same playstyle - press W and shoot. You expect to win a frontal engagement in a medium or a light tank vs a heavy tank. Such thinking kills the whole purpose of playing a heavy tank. That’s why armor meta is dead in War Thunder.
Out of 3 or 4 weakspots, this was the worst one you could’ve taken. Cupolas are in general the last weakspot I would shoot at.
It also shows that even when severely outmatched by a heavy tank 1 full BR higher, you still have options to one shot it from the front, even if all the proposed changes go through.
You really overestimate the Tiger. It’s balanced at 5.3-6.0 and APHE fragment zone change won’t change it.
The only thing it has that it shouldn’t have is an overpressure APHE, which is just dumb. Currently it doesn’t really matter and with the APHE fragment zone change going through it will make it slightly better, but not enough for any BR changes.
Overall, if all 3 of the proposed APHE changes go through, not much will change. APHE will stop being braindead to use, but will still be the best round. I found it more fun to use on the dev server, than the APHE we have now. Overall I find playing with any other shell type more satisfying. Only HEAT and APDS feel a bit underwhelming and of course APCR straight up doesn’t work if there is any kind of angle.
The proposed changes to the APHE is not making them more “realistic”, it’s a decrease of their damage, just another step to arcade. All kind of shells deal too little damage already, no need in such “improvements” to one of them.
I voted against the test and I will vote against the final implementation. I don’t want War Thunder to become another WoT.
Right now, APHE inflicts an unrealistic amount of damage, regardless of where it lands; therefore, it is now that it is way more arcade than it should otherwise be.
Making its effects more grounded and realistic would lead to an inherent demand to actually place shots thoughtfully, like every other shell in the game.
In fact, the main defence of “No” voters is that “this arcade element is more fun than it would be if it were more realistic”, and that “realism isn’t always good”… so your angle here is really confusing even to them…
In WoT, tanks die no matter where you hit them, even hollow plates, just because their HP lowers. That’s what currently pretty much what happens in War Thunder with APHE; shells anihilating everything inside a tank even if you hit a hollow, irrelevant spot, just because this particular shell kind becomes a thermonuclear bomb as soon as it penetrates an armor plate.
War Thunder’s whole premise is that you need to aim at critical components and crewmen to destroy or disable tanks, instead of just destroying them for hitting them anywhere because of arcade magical unrealistic effects…
Just a War Thunder advertisement and its variant roasting WoT’s unrealistic damage system, for us to remember what War Thunder has always been about:
“Single angle” as being the whole front of the tank on a lot of vehicles if the APHE change goes through. The kind of people that will go whine on reddit/forum because they died despite playing their heavy tank “properly”, and by “properly” meaning you pointed the front of the tank to people and expected to just survive 10 hits for free.
You can not always flank or move, in which case you resort to shooting the cupola. If you think that that’s not an option your aim is bad.
As seen in the T26E5 kill, or the shots on the Panther F in the post quoted below changing the angle was not an option. Situations like that are common.
A competent player will be able to play a 1vs1 against an aware enemy that sees him. If you just pretend that not being seen and flanking is always an option and should have no bearing on vehicle balancing I don’t know what to tell you, it’s delusional. Taking three shots to barrel and then take out both tracks on a Tiger that’s properly angled to then flank him is not remotely comparable in effectiveness with being able to dome him if your aim is good enough to hit the cupola.
Yeah, OK, all discussion is pointless then. Heavy tanks that are frontally invulnerable are horrible for balancing. Luckily most of the worst instances of those (Jumbo at 4.7, IS-6 at introduction, IS-7 at 8.0) have long been fixed.
What a bunch of hogwash. Driving out into an open field like a complete tool and hoping your armor saves you is a terrible way to play, and if it worked those vehicles would be ridiculously overpowered. The advantage of a heavy tank is that it forces your opponent to take very careful aim, while you do not usually have to do so. The same is true for a T26E5, Tiger E and so on that can be cupola’d. He can left click anywhere on most medium tanks he sees in a downtier, they have to hit a teeny tiny cupola weakspot in order to take him out. If that advantage is not enough to allow the heavy player to perform well he’s atrocious at the game.
Taking careful aim at tiny frontal weakspots is the opposite of holding W and relying on your armor to save you. You just want to make that part even easier.
There was no other spot I could reliably penetrate from that angle. If you are incapable to hit cupolas your aim is bad.
It, and many other tanks with strong frontal armor profile, lose none of their own lethality since they can usually center mass their opponents, in which case post pen of APHE does not suffer a relevant reduction. The Tiger has an overpressure round on top of that, so it will keep getting bullshit kills.
At the same time these vehicles lose important weakspots. Even if you are incapable of hitting them, other people are, as was demonstrated in this thread plenty of times by now. That obviously makes these vehicles significantly stronger, as counterplay options get reduced.
This will either leave us with a balancing mess, or when adressed, result in these tanks getting moved up to a BR where their armor becomes even less reliable against most of what they see. If the Tiger E were to go up to 6.3 for example the usual US gun it will see changes from the 76 to the 90 mm. At that point no angling really helps you.
But this has to go. Can’t have those pesky mediums fight back.
Brilliant balancing.
By the way, you still haven’t responded to this. Not that anyone expects you to admit to being wrong, you never do, but I thought I’d remind you since you kept claiming you’re a big boy that would absolutely admit fault when wrong.
Tank gameplay is not 1v1, even for planes it’s rare nowadays.
I agree discussion is pointless. You want heavy tanks to be penned frontally by the weakest opponents they can possibly meet.
I never said that is how heavy tanks should work.
No lmao, there were better spots. Machine gunner’s hatch, turret ring. From this angle the lower plate corners are too strong, but usually the lower plate corners are better.
I never said I can’t hit them. I said that I don’t shoot them, because there are better weakspots, closer to the center of mass.
You’re insane if you think Tiger E will become 6.3 worthy after the changes. Tiger IIs are at 6.7.
After the rework, if it happens, about every heavy tank will perform better. So what’s the surprise about they eventually going up in BR? Do you think Gaijin will look at those things efficiency skyrocketing and wont ever touch their BR?
And may I remind you the M26 and T26E5 are the same BR currently, so be ready to watch a lot of “interesting” balancing happen if that dumb rework happen. IDK what else do you expect.
Over the speed of sound, in fact. Now, thick armour can cause loss of velocity and indeed, there has been a case where thick armour slowed an inert shell so much, that it basically just flopped onto the driver’s lap harmlessly (well, test dummy’s).
None the less, in vast majority of cases the shell will be still travelling at a considerable speed after it penetrated armour.
As we all know, the conservation of momentum is one of the most fundamental principles of physics.
So, we have a shell travelling forward with speed near or even surpassing the speed of sound. This shell has explosive filler inside of it.
The explosive filler fuses and explodes and applies force on the shell. The shell is subsequently split apart.
We can discuss two extreme cases: The shell’s rear and the shell’s forward component.
The explosive filler expands radially outwards from inside the shell. It pushes the forward component away from itself, accelerating it to greater speeds.
However, the rear of the shell is travelling towards the explosion. The shockwave from the explosion slows the rear of the shell, but unless the shell has lost significant velocity its rear will continue travelling forward. At most, it will spread out into a wider cone as it travels due to getting scattered.
The parts of the shell between the rear and the forward part get thrown off the idealized straight trajectory, making them fill a wider area than if they had simply fragmented.
Put together, this means an APHE shell fusing should provide a very wide cone of death and barring very extreme, very rare cases where the shell has almost stopped as it entered the crew compartment - have practically no “backblast”. Ergo, no sphere of death.
Now, depending on the ratio of the shell’s mass and its explosive filler’s mass - you might experience different widening of the cone and potential ignition and shockwaves that will hurt the crew even without the fragmentation. This is represented by the “Overpressure” mechanic, which ideally should be adjusted to be more granular rather than a ahrd cutoff.
It is in TSS and SRE. It often is in ground RB, arcade and sim. Someone has to engage opponents head on or the enemy team has free map control.
Gaijin wants tanks to be frontally penned by most of what they see. Everything else is terrible game balancing.
You said they should rely on their armor to protect them from penetration, that’s synonymous. And it’s wrong, as pointed out. The armors main purpose is to force your opponent to spend more time aiming. They fulfill that purpose.
MG port is obscured, turret ring is far more RNG than the cupola.
If you could hit them you wouldn’t think they’re unreliable.
Tiger II (P) is 6.7 too. The IS-2 is 6.3, the IS-2 44 6.7. If these changes were to go through I don’t see how the Tiger E would not be worthy of 6.3. It’s already on the borderline to being uptierworthy without losing important weakspots and further having its relative gun performance buffed.
Discussion is pointless because your point literally goes against one of the fundamentals of the game. Heavies who can purely sit and mouse over the entire team because they can just absorb all the rounds is not balanced, especially when you consider all map design has shifted toward single-lane, head on head maps. This is a game, not real life. Heavies may have been able to do this IRL, but I will reiterate for the umpteenth time, is not balanced, and has no purpose in the game.
Uptiered mediums not being able to frontally engage downtiered heavies? clearly unbalanced, they should be able to pen everything they see frontally otherwise the game is deeply flawed
The funniest part is the so called “realistic” change will make shells magically gain pen to go through both sides of the cupola. 135mm pen 85mm shell magically will go through 90-95mm worth of armor TWICE to explode outside of the cupola.
Yeah, I never admit being wrong; like I didn’t when:
-I was wrong about Challenger 2’s turret traverse speed (I thought it was 40º/s because a “tanker” shared a video to prove it until I, on my own, found out it was sped up- I spent months trying to de-construct that false information afterwards, apologised for spreading misinformation for having been deceived and vowed to study matters more thoroughly before holding strong positions to avoid that situation to repeat.)
-I was wrong about Leclerc having spall liners (apparently it does not.)
-I was wrong about OFL F2 being better than OFL F1 (it really isn’t at all.)
-I was wrong about Merkava Mk.4 having spall liners (it does not.)
-I was wrong about M1A2 SEP having upgraded hull armor (it does not.)
-I was wrong about T-90A having a 40º/s turret rotation speed (I mixed stabiliser models).
-I was wrong about the Abrams MBTs having spall liners (they don’t, at least as such)
-I was wrong about the Abrams UFP being 51mm thick (It has 25mm thick reinforcements above the fuel tanks and right on the front section, but the UFP itself is 38mm thick.)
-I was wrong about Merkava Mk.4’s reload cycle being faster than any other MBT’s (the assisted loading is more comfortable, but adds one more step, cancelling out any potential speed advantage.)
Every time I have been wrong, I have had zero issue acknowledging it and standing corrected; these are just A FEW examples of it which I can think off the top of my head.
The 75/76mm matter you have been spamming about for days in attempts at picturing me like a bad faith/ignorant person is so small and irrelevant, and I have spent so much time trying to explain that the background of that was in regards to the Tiger vs Jumbo interaction, that I don’t even know what I am doing replying once again. So that comment in particular mentioned 76mms instead of 75mms? Cool, I did not even realise, my points still stand. Happy now, big guy? Or will the inquisition continue after you find another small technicality to nitpick again?
