Upcoming RP reductions appear to be smoke and mirrors

Game Discussion General Discussion
,
1

Now obviously we don’t have all the details yet of these changes, but as they are presented right now they really are disappointing having looked at the numbers, depending on your goals it’s almost no improvement at all.

The math might be a bit rough so possibly some mistakes in there but I believe it adds up.

So I looked at the German tree for this one, added up everything you needed to get all the vehicles up to and including top tier and compared it to the current tree, using current values.

So first number was 6.3 million RP required in the new TT to get the Puma, 2A6, FlaRakRad and such, going through the entire tree.
Currently I come to 8.2 million RP required for the tree we have now.
So that’s 1.9 million RP reduction, which is fine I guess… about 25% reduction, after 10 years I would have hoped for more but it is what it is.

However that doesn’t tell the whole story, for example vehicles that changed in rank.

  • Radkampfwagen
  • PUMA
  • Leopard 2K
  • Leopard 2A4
  • Ozelot
  • Gepard 1A2 (folder)
  • Wiesel 1A2

image
image1144×268 110 KB

As well as some vehicles like the Jagdtiger going down but those would be pretty small numbers as it’s also halved with a folder.

These other vehicles moved from Rank VI to Rank VII and with that comes an increase in RP and SL, with Rank VII vehicles requiring 340k to 400k RP, in this case I used the most generous option and put them all at 340k RP.

This means an additional 545.000 RP added to the 6.3 million RP, for 6.855.000 RP, reducing the reduction from 25% to about 16%.

Another thing to note is that whilst they proudly announce that Rank l is no longer connected to Rank ll:

image

They at the same time create new connections that weren’t there before.

Before
image

After

image

So whatever small gains were made at Rank l are gone at Rank ll anyways.

From here it kind of depends on your goals, if you play the game as intended, as in buying a top tier premium and grinding the entire tree out through one death leaving, this is a somewhat okay improvement.
However if you do actually want to play the game, the RP reduction is achieved primarily by making the vehicles optional to grind by a few folders, and not actually reducing the RP significantly.

Whilst you can get to top tier with 16% less RP required, it also means you miss out on a number of vehicles that are included in the current calculation, so it seems only fair that those vehicles are included in the new calculation, putting a vehicle in a folder doesn’t mean that players won’t need them to make lineups etc.

Including those, the Panther G, DF 105, JaPz etc with their 50% reduction, I get to another 828.550 RP, which paired with the current 6.855.000 RP comes to a total of 7.683.550 RP when all is said and done.

So by the end of it all it’s about a 6% RP reduction total for the average player… assuming I didn’t make a mistake somewhere.

Now for the final act, and this might be a controversial one, there is one more thing to add, the helicopter grind.
They didn’t reduce the helicopter grind, they didn’t improve heli PvE, they didn’t improve the arcade modes, no reduction in module RP or anything of the kind, a 9.0 helicopter is still 300.000 RP whilst a ground vehicle is around 180.000 at the same BR.

image

What they did do, was dump the helicopter grind on the plate of the ground forces players, which now is the only feasible way to research them, which is why I believe the grind counts for ground forces, which in the case of Germany is 1.710.000 RP you have to research.

So the total RP required adds up to a grand total of 9.393.550 RP, which means the announced RP reduction plan actually increase the grind by 1.2 million RP or 15%.

Additionally it can also increase your grind depending on where you are in the tree, things like the M1A1 HC and the Leopard 2K get removed rom their line to some random location.

From the tech tree with ALL the Leopards, they took it out and place it after a T-72 instead, if you didn’t research that line yet, you will have to.

image

This is even worse in the case of China, the ZTZ99A and the WZ1001 are their two top tier vehicles, currently located in the same tree, but in this new and improved tech tree, result of 'careful consideration and intended to streamline:

image

We went from this ---------------> to this

image

Which means you are now forced to grind out the entire left side as well, with amazing vehicles like the M41D or the M60A3 everyone loves, vehicles everyone skipped.

Now you can argue that they need to incentivize (force) players to grind out all the trees, which I question as that seems to be a choice for me to make, especially if you fill a line with boring garbage vehicles, but to incentivize this at the same time you’re supposedly trying to push RP reductions, that’s not cool.

As someone who is trying to get through the Chinese tech tree and get through the ZTZ, ZTZ, ZTZ, ZTZ, ZTZ, ZTZ, ZTZ, ZTZ grind I was waiting for this update, however there is 2.25 million RP between 8.7 and 11.7 for me, with these changes, this INCREASES my grind to 2.7 million RP, so a whopping RP reduction of negative half a million.

I waited for months to see them make a bad grind even worse, where else but in Warthunder.

On a side note, the upcoming changes also move a lot of the lower BR vehicles from Rank lll to Rank ll, this will further limit your ability to create lineups that qualify for the never ending grind, battlepass, dailies, events etc.

For Germany you were able to use the Hs 129 at 2.7 for events, now it’s Rank ll.
Same applies to the Me 410 A-1/U4, Me 410 B-2/U4, moving the lowest BR from 2.7 to 3.7.

The same thing applies to other nations, whilst in no way they explain this change and just shovel it in with the changes they deem to be ‘‘logical’’ and ‘‘streamlined’’.

Would love to know your thoughts on this, have you checked different trees or noticed things I have missed?

11 Likes
2

The WZ1001 being moved to ROC/LT line is bizarre. Legit makes no sense.
This “careful consideration” was done under the influence of alcohol or something.

Most of the changes are ok, I guess, but some are just plain stupid.

4 Likes
3

It makes sense if you want to pretend you reduced the grind when you actually increased it.

Moving the Leopard 2K out of the Leopard line to be behind a T-72 of east Germany instead of behind a Leopard and in front of a Leopard makes sense if you want to force people to grind another tree.

M1A1 also goes from the M1 line to behind an M60A3 because logic I guess.

1 Like
4

Also they are pushing some premium tanks to higher ranks… while also making them cost more.

5

Vote with your wallets. 😉

2 Likes
6

Premiums really didn’t need to go up in price, I remember buying the Tiger ll Sla many years ago, back then it was able to research the entire tech tree and was very competitive.
Nowadays it gets slaughtered in non-stop 7.3 and 7.7 games courtesy of this decompression, whilst not even able to research half the tech tree anymore, that is a massively decrease in value and use, but Gaijin is still thinking of increasing the cost of premiums.

They also put some older premiums at 9.3, the Type 74 G is now 9.3, but all the other Type 74s ate 9.0 because thermals are only available to those who spend money it seems, but no worry because there’s a new premium at 9.0 you can buy that will fit better with a lineup.

Leopard A1A1 L/44 is at 9.3 as well, but you can get the TAMP ll now.

9.3 by the way that is completely and totally ruined because the 10.0 and 10.3 hell hole.

1 Like
7

Including the Helicopters in the grind calculations and then saying they increased the grind because of that addition is disengenous. You have also missed this :
image
as part of this:
image
Simply, there are more vehicles foldered, and those foldered will cost half the RP. this is a massive benefit for people like me, who want to research every vehicle in the tree, and all those who want to get more complete lineups. Some of the changes in rank are certainly questionable, but it seems like they are trying to arrange the lines and ranks by br as a trend, though not as a set rule. When the reduction in rp and sl cost for rank 6 and 7 comes in it will overall be a much better grind.

As for increasing the rank and price of the second set of current rank 6 premiums, this was expected and makes sense, as rank 8 for ground is coming, and these premiums were most likely designed to eventually be rank7 and help to research the rank8 vehicles

3 Likes
8

Including the Helicopters in the grind calculations and then saying they increased the grind because of that addition is disengenous.

I clearly separated it from the initial numbers and stated it might be a controversial one, I didn’t sneak it in there so I fail to see how it’s disingenuous, there is nothing dishonest about it, it’s clearly spelled out and explained. You can disagree with it, but that doesn’t make my point disingenuous.

Considering there is no realistic alternative to researching helicopters, it will end up being additional RP you have to grind with ground forces.

And how did I miss that? I didn’t miss that all, it clearly states reduction of aircraft and I am not talking about aircraft but the ground forces, and it doesn’t say reduction of research and purchase cost of ground vehicles.

And I did calculate the 50% RP reduction of foldered vehicles, so again I did not miss that, and again the RP reduction for rank 6 and 7 isn’t coming.

And yeah, it will be a much better grind by about 6%.

this was expected and makes sense

Makes sense to you perhaps, to me it is completely and utterly absurd to charge $70 for a virtual vehicle and increase the price of a bunch of other premiums when they get moved up when it doesn’t remotely compensate for the loss in value they experienced over the years, even at the same price it’s a worse deal by the day.

9

The WZ1001(E) change is from my perspective does two bad things.

  1. It forces you to research the absolutely Dismal Taiwanese sub-tree that everyone skipped.
    Nobody had any reason to research that side before as it was just downgraded and M60 variants and terrible light tanks.

  2. It doubles the amount of “end of line” vehicles, which have massively overinflated RP costs.
    Yes, the CM-11 is no longer hit with the end of line tax, but nobody wanted it anyways. Now both the Chinese 11.7s are overinflated to hell. “end of line” penalty should not exist.

I get that gaijin wants people to research that branch of the tree, but a better way to do that would be to buff or decrease in BR those M60s and fix the M41D doing no damage. In addition, if they were feeling extra spicy, they could give the new M1A2s Taiwan bought recently as the finale to that branch, instead of a random ZTZ99 variant that has nothing to do with the rest of the branch. That branch as of now still feels like pointless garbage filler, when it could be much more.

2 Likes
10

Agreed, the end of the line tax is a penalty to anyone who is on top of the grind, which shouldn’t need to be punished, every time new vehicles are added to top tier you get the end of the line penalty, and again and again every time.
Whilst someone who has not researched those vehicles yet won’t get the end of the line penalty.

A TAM 2C at 10.0 is already more of a grind than a 2A5 at 11.7.
The TAM requiring 457.000 RP for modules, with a top tier 2A5 only 272.000, it’s on par with a 2A6 that needs 464.000 RP.

Completely insane that a 10.0 light vehicle has the same requirements as a top tier MBT, at least top tier for Germany.

And anyone playing the TAM now will have to deal with the end of line tax, but after the update the modules should become cheaper for future players because it’s no longer end of the line, so you got penalized more and wasted 200k RP because you’re researching it before them.

11

ngl Leopard 2K going after the T-72M is pretty interesting
but there’s something special about the Vickers P Tempest going to Rank II in the Beaufighter line

WZ1001 moving from the 99A line makes no sense, MBT-2000 will also be placed before it. The MBT-2000 placement is pretty poor imo but it might make more sense later if they put more export vehicles in that line as well, finishing with the VT-4 (not 1001E LCT)

12

Interesting, yes.

And yeah… very questionable to move a Tempest in between a Beaufighter and Mosquito, but a 3.7 foldered in behind a 5.7 was very questionable to begin with, and then they also put the Hurricane before the Beaufighter.

image

13

In my opinion its disengenous to include it at all, because it is not included at all in the current state of the grind as you displayed it. The change to research helis with ground vehicles was a very positive one, and i wish they had done it for air too

This is fair to assume, though it isnt stated explicitly anywhere, but is actually not going to be the case for any length of time hopefully as ill get to in a second.

Apologies, this is a lack of explanation on my part, this change refers to the one they always do after increasing the top rank for the gamemode, so when rank 6 and 7 were added they did this, where they reduce the RP costs for vehicles for the below ranks to even out the grind. this should have come when they added in rank 8 air, but it did not for whatever reason, and was included in the roadmap, as i linked. this means that when rank 8 ground comes, which i would guess is either this update or next, they will then apply the same and decrease the RP cost of the rank 6 and 7 vehicles

Of course i would prefer it if there was no rank 8 coming, and they were not going up in rank at all, but it does make sense that when rank 8 comes, the premiums that are moved to rank 7 go up in price to reflect the new state of the grind.

14

In my opinion its disengenous to include it at all, because it is not included at all in the current state of the grind as you displayed it. The change to research helis with ground vehicles was a very positive one, and i wish they had done it for air too

I still fail to see how it’s disingenuous, where am I trying to deceive or be dishonest? If you dislike that part I have the numbers without the helicopters as well.
The change is good, but it also means a ton of extra RP required to grind with ground forces instead of adding an alternative that helicopters could grind themselves in a reasonable matter.

Even without that added the RP reduction is a joke.

This is fair to assume, though it isnt stated explicitly anywhere, but is actually not going to be the case for any length of time hopefully as ill get to in a second.

I did start by saying that this is the situation as currently presented, if they change it, good, but currently this is the reality as things increase in RP according to their rank, it’s the most logical assumption.

this means that when rank 8 ground comes, which i would guess is either this update or next, they will then apply the same and decrease the RP cost of the rank 6 and 7 vehicles

That is also just an assumption right now, they could also make rank 8 vehicles cost more RP and set them at 450 to 500k RP.

15

this is why i’d say its disengenous, because you appear to be making it out that the changes are not positive, and basing it on the specific situation you are in as compared to someone grinding the game from the start.

it is a stopgap measure, but there is no requirement to grind helis to play ground vehicles. there was no requirement before the change, and there is not one now.

they most likely will increase the costs as such, and im sure people will complain just as much when they do ignoring all of the other changes they make to rp costs.

16

this is why i’d say its disengenous, because you appear to be making it out that the changes are not positive, and basing it on the specific situation you are in as compared to someone grinding the game from the start.

The only thing disingenuous here is you at the moment, I have outlined every step of the way, I explained how your goals might change the outcome, I differentiated between those who grind the entire tree with the goal to get top tier as well as those who look to make lineups starting from scratch.

The rest of the post is:
there is 2.25 million RP between 8.7 and 11.7 for me, with these changes, this INCREASES my grind to 2.7 million RP, so a whopping RP reduction of negative half a million.

I waited for months to see them make a bad grind even worse, where else but in Warthunder.

Not to mention this is an addition to the original post where I use a personal example to support my former statement where I said: Additionally it can also increase your grind depending on where you are in the tree

So taking it out of context is disingenuous.

it is a stopgap measure, but there is no requirement to grind helis to play ground vehicles. there was no requirement before the change, and there is not one now.

Yeah, just like how cockpit placeholders are temporary, they decided to not make helicopters viable, not reduce the RP requirements or improve the situation in any way, shape or form, instead they shifted the burden to ground forces and the next time someone complains they’ll tell you how you can already grind it using ground forces, so they can postpone it for another 5 years, that’s how long we waited for this.

they most likely will increase the costs as such, and im sure people will complain just as much when they do ignoring all of the other changes they make to rp costs.

Waiting 10 years for a 6% RP reduction should indeed be praised, glorious Snail, we got 5 new nations, trees double or tripled in size, helicopters, naval but here’s 6% RP reduction to compensate for the grind increasing 10 fold in the last 10 years.

17

This comment speaks worlds of your understanding of the grind and how it has changed

18

Did anyone expect them to actually reduce anything?

I didn’t.

The problem also to account for is the addition of new throw away vehicles like the new AMX. It’s not going to be a good tank and it just adds more slog to the grind.

19

Feel free to tell me about how much the grind has improved then, because this is what I see:

image

image

Except my tech tree ended with the Leopard 1 and maybe 50 vehicles in the entire tree.

image

And not the Leopard 2A6, with there being 50 vehicles in rank l to rank lll already and close to a 100 vehicles in the entire tree or so.

And it’s not as if the vehicles got 10 times cheaper either

image

image

So please, explain to me why I don’t understand the grind and how it has changed.

20

Rank 8 is coming soon, and RP requirements are based on placement not rank.

There’s still going to be a drastic reduction in total RP.
Unfoldered stuff is likely jumping in rank, such as 2A5 & 2A6 going to rank 8 separate from 2A4.
Flarakrad going to rank 8.
Et-cetera.
No negative change in RP requirements.