Unification of Hand turret traverse

Note: This is in its basic form a ballancing suggestion. Which i still wanted to share.

The majority of traverse speeds in game are currently placeholders and not historical (see list below).

Currently there are a couple of Tanks in game that have a manual hand crank turret traverse, most noticeable by their horrific turret traverse speed.
This is because historic testing was never made, because the speed depends on the gunners strength and endurance.
And the Devs decided on some speed, which cannot be changed, as the required Source material doesnt exist.

It should be changed so that they are all first implemented with a relativly good traverse speed, and only corrected (downwards or upwards) if correct historic speeds are found.

This includes all turreted tanks with hand traverse (NOT Electric, Hydraulic or other non hand perfomed kinds and also not casemate guns) that are below the 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec speed and fit in the formular, should have their turret speed increased according to the listing. So that for ballancing reasons (if not historically proven otherwise) all none meme (see categorie 4) tanks have an usable turret traverse speed.

This would only improve tanks, but not nerf any. (Currently higher traverse speeds would not be lowered.)

What exactly should change?

A classification into 3 (4) categories and their dedicated new placeholder turret speed (Basic and Max speed), these classifications are for the turrets semselfs and not limited to the main tank classification, in the following, i will list the 4 categories and give some examples (there would be more tanks affected in more nations).

Light Turret: 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

General rule: Small size and armarment. 1-2 crew, relatively thinn armor.
(Here i took the T-60 as basis, while the T-70 and T-80 are far slower.)

Examples and further clarification: (Click to expand)

T-70, T-80 4,2°/sec / 6,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

  • Like the T-60 allready has, they all feature relatively small lighter turrets.

Panzer III Ausf. B 4,2°/sec / 6,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

  • While it is a medium tank, the turret is quite light, with only 14,5mm armor all round and armed with a small 37mm gun.

M2 Medium 3,8°/sec / 5,5°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

  • This is also a medium tank, however has a very small 1 man turret with a 37 mm gun.

Medium Turret: 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec

General rule: Small to Medium size, small and medium armarment (37-75mm), 2-3 crew and medium armor thickness (+/- 30mm)
(Here i took the Pz III Ausf. J1 as basis, while the B-J are far slower.)

Examples and further clarification: (Click to expand)

T-50, T-126 5,6°/sec / 8,0°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec

  • While these turrets are also a bit on the smaller side, they are however with 2-3 crew and have thicker armor.

Panzer III Ausf. E-J 3,8°/sec / 5,5°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec

  • Like the other Pz III Ausf. J1-N allready have, they can be seen as a classic Medium Tank and Turret.

M8 HMC, LVT(A)(4) 4,2°/sec / 6,0°/sec → 9,8 °/sec / 14°/sec

  • These are also light tanks, however equipped with a new bigger turret armed with the 75mm M2 Howitzer, greater size, but relatively light for the size and armed with a 75mm gun.

Greater and inballanced Turret: 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

General rule: Medium to larger size, medium to greater armarment (75mm, 105mm and up), thicker armor (above 40-45mm), long armarment (weight is often not central to the turret ring, making turning harder)
(Here i took the Pz IV Ausf. J as basis, it allready has 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec.)

Examples and further clarification: (Click to expand)

M4A3 (105) 4,2°/sec / 6,0°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

  • I count the M4A3 (105) to greater and inballanced turret, because of the greater amarment (105mm) and armor thickness (134mm-51mm)

M10 GMC 3,1°/sec / 4,5°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

  • While the turret is open top and rather thin armored, the turret is big, the gun is long and greater frontal armor, resulting in out of center weight.

VK 30.02 (M) Panther D 4,2°/sec / 6,0°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

  • Not much to say, its obviusly a big turret, with long gun.

Type 97 Chi-Ha Short Gun 4,2°/sec / 6,0°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

  • While a medium tank, with some light characteristics, it 120mm gun gives it more of an out of ballance shape

And the “4” categorie, the very heavy oversize turrets, these should not change.

These turrets are the far bigger tanks with really heavy and big turrets with big guns, such as Kv-2 and so on, these should stay as they are, it seems far to unrealistic to give those over 5 ton turrets greater speeds above their current 4,2°/sec / 6,0°/sec, while it is allready historically proven, for example that the Kv-2 could only turn the turret on flat surfaces.


This list includes ALL, that would change: (Click here to expand)

USA:
M2 Medium 3,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
M8 HMC 4,2°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
LVT(A)(4) 4,2°/sec → 9.8°/sec / 14°/sec
M4A3 (105) 4,2°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec
M10 GMC 3,1°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Germany:
Pz 35 (t) 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec/ 15°/sec
Pz 38 (t) Ausf. A, F and n.A. 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pz II Ausf. C and F 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pz III Ausf. B 4,2°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pz III Ausf. E-J 3,8°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
Sd.Kfz. 234/2 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
VK 30.02 (M) Panther D 4,2°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Russia:
ZUT-37 5,2°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
T-70 and T-80 4,2°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
T-50 and T-126 5,6°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec

GB:
Archilles: 3,1°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Japan:
Ka-Mi 8,5°/sec → 10,5°/sec/ 15°/sec
Chi-Nu 7,3°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
Type 97 Chi-Ha Short Gun 4,2°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Itali:
AB 43 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

France:
S.35 7,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
FCM.36 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
D.2 7,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
B1 Bis/Ter 7,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

Sweden:
Strv m/41 S-I and S-II 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pvkv III 8,4°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pvkv II 8,4°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
Pvkv IV 3,8°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
BT-42 4,2°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec

This would especially help at the lower Tiers and in general create a greater unification, as currently different tanks have different speed even with the same turret and traverse mechanism (Pz III Ausf. J and J1 for example) and many use placeholder speeds currently allready.

A comprehensive list of a couple of the current placeholder speeds:

(This includes all types tanks, but not ALL, i left out modern, better documented ones and in general didnt add all, because it would be way too much.)

Current placeholder list in game. (Click here to expand)

3,1°/sec:
M10, Archilles, Gun Carrier (3-In)

3,8°/sec:
M2 Medium, Panzer III Ausf. E-J

4,2°/sec:
M8 HMC, LVT(A)(4), M4A3 (105), M3 GMC, 15 cm s.I.G 33 B Sfl., Pz III Ausf. B, VK 30.02 (M), Panther D, T-70, T-80, KV-2 Mod. 1939, BM-13N, SU-57, Ho-Ro, Chi-Ha SG, Na-To, SAu 40, BT-42, Ho-Ri Prototype, Ho-Ri Production,

4,9°/sec:
ZiS-30, SU-57B, SU-76M, SU-122, ISU-122, ISU-122S, SU-100

5,6°/sec:
T-50, T-126, SU-5-1, SU-152, ISU-152, StuG III Ausf. A, Jagdpanzer IV, Panzer IV/70 (V), Jagdpanzer 38(t), Maus, E-100, Ferdinand, Jagdpanther, Jagdpanzer 4-5, Ikv 72, Sav m/43 (1944), spj fm/43-44, Sav m/43 (1946), Pvkv m/43 (1946), Ikv 103, Pvkv m/43 (1963), SU-85M

7,0°/sec:
Pz IV Ausf. J, Pz.Bfw. IV, VFW, Ro-Go Exp., Chi-Ha LG, S.35, D2, B1 Bis, Sturmtiger, Tortoise, Char FCM 2C, Char FCM 2C bis

7,7°/sec:
8,8cm Flakbus (18t), QF 3.7 Ram, 29-K

8,4°/sec:
Panzerjäger I, Marder III, Marder III H, StuH 42 G, Dicker Max, Sturer Emil, Tiger H1, Nashorn, Panther II, KV-1B, KV-1 (L-11), KV-1S, KV-1 (ZiS-5), ASU-57, M8A1 GMC, LVT(A)(4)(ZiS-2), KV-220, Lorraine 37L, Pvkv II, Pvkv III, Chi-Ri II, Type 75 SPH, Type 99

9,8°/sec:
Pz.35 (t), Pz.38(t) A, F and n.A., Sd.Kfz. 234/2, Pz III Ausf. J1-N, Pz II Ausf. C-F, Sd.Kfz. 251/9, Tiger E, Panzer IV Ausf. C-H, Avenger, SARC MkIVa, Type 2 Ho-I, Type 1 Chi-He, Chi-Nu II, M11/39, M13/40 (I-III), M14/41, M15/42, P40, Zrinyi II, Zrinyi I, 75/18 M41, 75/32 M41, 75/34 M42, 105/25 M43, 75/34 M43, 75/46 M43, Waffenträger, Pz.Sfl. Ic, KV-85, SARC MkIVA, IS-2, Celere Sahariano, FCM.36, Vickers Mk.E, Strv M/41 S-II, Strv m/41 S-I, Pbil m/40, Sd.Kfz.234/3, Sd.Kfz.234/4

10,5°/sec:
M2A2, Nb.Fz., StuG III Ausf. F, StuG III Ausf. G, Panther G, T-28 (all), SMK, Concept 3 NGAC, Chi-Ha Kai, Panther F, Sturmpanzer IV, SU-85, Comet I, Turan I, ARL-44 (ACL-1), Ikv 73, Strv m/42 EH, Strv m/42 DT, 15 cm Pz.W.42

11,2°/sec:
BT-5, BT-7, BT-7M, BT-7A (F-32), Tetrach Mk I, Daimler AC Mk II, A13 Mk I, A13 Mk II, A13 Mk II 1939, Valentine Mk I-IX, Strv m/31, Strv m/38, Ho-Ni I, Ho-Ni III, T-26, T-26-4

12,6°/sec:
M3 Lee, Grant I, Centurion Mk I, T18E2, FV4202, Conway, FV4005 Stage II, Strv 74, T34 (USA), T54E1 (USA), M6A2E1, T1E1

14°/sec:
M3 Light, M3A1 Light, M8 LAC, Panther A, Panther G, BMP-1, Matilda III, AMR.35 ZT3

16,8°/sec:
LVT(A)(1), M18 GMC, M4 Sherman (All), T26E5, T26E1-1, T92, M103, Ru 251, Leopard 1 C2A1, Leopard 1 A1A1 (L/44), Chruchill Mk I, Churchill Mk. III, Churchill NA75, Churchill Mk VII, Sherman Firefly, AEC Mk II, Excelsior, T14, T20, T32, T32E1, Leopard A1A1, Leopard 1A5, M48 Super, Radkampfwagen 90, TAM, ST-A1, ST-A2, ST-A3, Type 61, M41

This list does not include all placeholder speeds, as there are so many.

If you made it till here, feel free to share your thoughts and perhaps improvements.

Would you like to see this in-game?
  • Yes
  • No

0 voters

Are turret rotations not already historical

Yes, but as i allready listed a bunch of examples, most are Placeholders. Would you like me to increase the list to a greater amount? Furthermore, when actual speeds are found, they would then be priorised.

For further clarification, the there are more tanks with a placeholder turret traverse speed, than historic traverse speed. And i have increased the list in the original post.

Does this list include SPAA? If so does it get a buff?

I am not exactly shure what you mean with that, could you further clarify? But yes, most SPAA also have Placeholder speeds. I will add them in another comment.

Im not sure how fast a SPAA turret should go but i can imagine many early are hand cranked. Would your suggestion make them better? Theres a big list and i can see you worked hard on this.

I can see an issue that being gun lengh, ie longer gun is going to turn slower

SPAA Traverse speeds, are also placeholders. I did not include all SPAA and not the modern ones (as they are better documented and dont use placeholders). Here you can see and differentiate between documented ones and placeholders.

NOTE: These are Upgraded, NO crew speeds, so not the absolute max speed.

14,7°/sec:
Lvtdgb m/40, L-62 ANTI II

17,5°/sec:
M15 CGMC

19,9°/sec:
Pvlvv fm/42

21°/sec:
ZiS-43, ZSU-37, Pbv 301

24,5°/sec:
Flakpanzer I Ausf. A, Flakpanzer 38(t), Sd.Kfz. 6/2, Ostwind, Ostwind II, GAZ-AAA (DShK), GAZ-MM (72-K), ZiS-12 (94-K), Type 94, AS 42, CCKW 353 40mm Bofors,

25,2°/sec:
WZ305

28°/sec:
M19A1, M42, Sd.Kfz.222, M53/59, Crusader AA Mk I, AC Mk II AA, Ta-Se, So-Ki, Sd.Kfz.222 (China)

30,1°/sec:
T17E2

31,5°/sec:
Ystervark, R3 T20 FA-HS

32,2°/sec:
BTR-152A, BTR-152D

37,8°/sec:
ZSD63/PG87

42°/sec:
M13, M16, Sd.Kfz. 251/21, Wirbelwind, Kugelblitz, GAZ-AAA (4M), BTR-ZD, ZSU-57-2, ZSU-37-2, Mk.VIA AA, Bosvark, SUB-I-II, CCKW 353 (M45), Phong Khong T-34, CM 52, M42 Contraereo, P.7.T AA,

44,1°/sec:
Skink

49°/sec:
Crusader AA Mk II, Lvkv 42

59,5°/sec:
Leopard 40/70

Long guns can bring a turret out of ballance and result in slow turning, especially on uneven ground (such isnt in game but can be seen as in general). I am not shure if you mean that also for AA, tho AA are a bit different, as the mechanism is often quite heavy, which ballances the barrles out and in general more simple AA laffets are often lighter in general.

I am not shure how to include them, further more mostly the early Swedish AA seem to be slow, tho they appear to be useing historic values, cince they are unique and have uneven values, see my previous comment for a big AA list.

Im planning to make a comprehensive list of affected vehicles and their would be new turret traverse speed. When i get time. I will make it as a post here and a update the OP in a Spoiler Tap.

If all tanks fitting in the formular, that are below 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec, then these tanks would be changed and only noteing the upgraded, no crew speed and the Max Speed:

This list includes ALL:

USA:
M2 Medium 3,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
M8 HMC 4,2°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
LVT(A)(4) 4,2°/sec → 9.8°/sec / 14°/sec
M4A3 (105) 4,2°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec
M10 GMC 3,1°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Germany:
Pz 35(t) 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec/ 15°/sec
Pz 38 (t) Ausf. A, F and n.A. 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pz II Ausf. C and F 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pz III Ausf. B 4,2°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pz III Ausf. E-J 3,8°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
Sd.Kfz. 234/2 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
VK 30.02 (M) Panther D 4,2°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Russia:
ZUT-37 5,2°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
T-70 and T-80 4,2°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
T-50 and T-126 5,6°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec

GB:
Archilles: 3,1°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Japan:
Ka-Mi 8,5°/sec → 10,5°/sec/ 15°/sec
Chi-Nu 7,3°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
Type 97 Chi-Ha Short Gun 4,2°/sec → 7,0°/sec / 10°/sec

Itali:
AB 43 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

France:
S.35 7,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
FCM.36 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
D.2 7,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
B1 Bis/Ter 7,0°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec

Sweden:
Strv m/41 S-I and S-II 9,8°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pvkv III 8,4°/sec → 10,5°/sec / 15°/sec
Pvkv II 8,4°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
Pvkv IV 3,8°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec
BT-42 4,2°/sec → 9,8°/sec / 14°/sec

Overall, such adaptation of Turret traverse speed is allready done by gaijin, the recent was the Tetrach Mk I, which got increased to 11,2°/sec like the Daimler AC Mk II allready was, because of similar turrets.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/0iiUv2cQHwRY