Two Classes of 12.0 MBTs and the Leopard 2A5/2A6/2 PSO Belong to Neither

[Gramih14]

Right now, top-tier 12.0 MBTs clearly fall into two categories:

1. High Firepower – Low Armor MBTs:
   Abrams SEP V1/V2, Challenger 2E/Black Night, Type 10, TKX, Ariete AMV, Merkava Mk.4s, Leclercs.

Reload < 6s (often 5s in Ace crew)

Gen 2+ thermals

Great mobility, at least 550mm pen

Some have spall liners and LWS

Bad armor

2. Heavy Armor – Slower Reload MBTs:
   Leopard 2A7V/HU, T-80BVM, T-90M, ZTZ99A, VT4A1, WZ1001(E), Strv 122s

Very strong turret/hull armor

Reload > 6s

Gen 2+ thermals, spall liners, strong crew protection

And then… there’s the 2A5 / 2A6 / 2PSO.

No ERA or APS

No strong armor or spall liners in key spots

Still using Gen 1 thermals

Commander thermal? Useless if he dies instantly

6s reload with no survivability advantage

So why are they at 12.0?
Three possible reasons:

1. Survivability? Not anymore — post-component update, they die fast

2. Spall liner? Not in the right places to matter

3. Commander thermals? Pointless without protection or LWS

Even the M1A2 (11.7) has similar pen, better reload, and similar armor layout.

Conclusion:
2A5 / 2A6 / 2PSO don’t fit either category of 12.0 tanks. They’re outdated and underpowered.
so this is why I think that they belong at 11.7 like the m1a2 Abrams

[Константинович7]

I don’t know what are you trying to accomplish with this thread. All the problems with the old Meta fighting in the current Meta’s territory has been brought to light because of the compression.

[AlvisWisla]

The Leopard 2A5 are among the best 12.0s in the game.

Abrams is not low-armor. T-80BVM is not heavy armor either. Abrams, 2A5, and T-80BVM are moderate armor.
Wild post.

Leopard 2A7V is has more hull armor over 2A5, that’s it.
And 2A5 has slightly more hull armor than Abrams.

[Magikッ]

I think this is more of a compression issue. M1A2 and 2A5 are equals however putting them at 11.7 wouldn’t be the play.

[Gramih14]

the bvm has one of the best armor in 12.0

[AlvisWisla]

No it isn’t. BVM’s turret is easily penned with DM33 having only slightly more armor than the Abrams hull, because BVM’s turret is seen at 10.3 as well.

The heaviest armored tanks are T-90M and Strv 122.

[Magikッ]

@AlvisWisla

The heaviest armored tanks are T-90M and Strv 122.

Include the 2A7 as well

[Gramih14]

Are you sure we’re talking about the same T-80BVM because it has 800mm-1m of frontal armor and its turret can stop all top tier shells without problem, of course, like all top tier tanks, its breech is less armored

[Magikッ]

BVM’s turret protection. Its not amazing, just don’t hit the Relikt.

[Gramih14]

so maybe putting the leopard 2a7v, the strv 122 b+ and the t-90m in 12.3 would be a better option?

[Magikッ]

I don’t think the T-90M deserves to go up, Maybe 13.7 for CAS, 12.7 for Leos, 12.3 for Abrams, T-90M, T-80BVM, and 12.0 for the Merkava, Leclerc, Type 10, Challys, and 2A5-PSO maybe? Sloppy list but you get my idea.

[Gramih14]

Yes, that’s what I’m saying, the breech isn’t armored, but in any case, when a T-80BVM is moving, it’s almost impossible to shoot in the turret without hitting the relikt.

[Gramih14]

yeah I see what you are trying to say , my point is just that the 2a5 and the 2a7v should not be in the same br

[Magikッ]

Sure, I agree.

[AlvisWisla]

Visual inspection: 122, 2A7V, and 2A5/6

Spoiler

Ammo:

Spoiler

Turret armor is identical on all of them.
And all of them are weak in CQC due to idler wheel weakspot universal on all tanks.

@Gramih14

The space between the ERA and hull roof is as physically wide as the Abrams ring at the widest part.

Also the T-90M and Strv 122 have worse ammo than other 12.0s, they’re fine at 12.0. [Most of the Challengers 2s [3TD as well] are already 11.7.]

[Magikッ]

@Gramih14

Yes, that’s what I’m saying, the breech isn’t armored, but in any case, when a T-80BVM is moving, it’s almost impossible to shoot in the turret without hitting the relikt.

Yeah its definitely more difficult but not impossible. BVM heavily relies on you not stopping and moving around. Also, if you do hit a Relikt plate and get the chance to shoot again (say he’s breached), you will completely lolpen the turret once that Relikt is shot off.

[Gramih14]

@AlvisWisla

The space between the ERA and hull roof is as physically wide as the Abrams ring at the widest part.

the space between the Abrams turret and its chassis is worse than the t-80bmv turret because the t-80 is clearly smaller, I finished the 3 nations (Germany, America, Russia) and clearly the Abrams armor was clearly the worst besides the apfsds shells often tend to bounce off the plate inclined at 82° to pierce the underside of the Abrams turret.
now concerning the t-80bvm and strv 122 shells they do not need to pierce more because the majority of tanks have an over-armored turret even for the best shells and a chassis with less than 550mm except for the tanks that I had mentioned having good armor

[AlvisWisla]

Gramih, I’ve studied the T-series and accounted for turret size.
I get your concerns though.

[SpeclistMain1]

@Gramih14

so this is why I think that they belong at 11.7 like the m1a2 Abrams

A better map of the Abrams (made like 4-5 months ago):

[_Ladies_Man_217]

@Magikッ

for Abrams, T-90M, T-80BVM

By talking about the Abrams you mean the SEPV1,V2 which they’re absolutely inferior to the BVM,T90M in armor category (SEPV2 is more fat thanks to the unremovable TUSK which makes it lack in mobility) so Top Tier Abrams going to be much better next to the Merks,Leclerc…etc