Tornado GR.1 Balance Issue

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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46

9Ms don’t belong on a supersonic airframe at 11.7

You’re being very vague, the Tornado GR.1 may be supersonic but that’s where all the good traits end and that’s only if you can call it one - most vehicles at the same BR will out speed the Tornado GR.1. The GR.1 itself is indeed supersonic but it may as well be a MiG-25 as it can’t turn for sh*t, it might as well lose the ailerons since turning in it is a dream, a fallacy.

There’s also the Tornado at 12.3 with more CMs and better engines

You’re using a wrong as an example, the Tornado GR.4 itself shouldn’t be 12.3 making this argument weak, just because Gaijin messed up the BR of the GR.4 doesn’t mean the GR.1 should also receive the same treatment (and that’s if it ever gets the AIM-9Ms).

You can also look at the A-10C that also has 9Ms at 11.7, and that certainly isn’t equal to a Tornado with 9Ms

You mean the vehicle which gets double the amount of AIM-9Ms as a potential GR.1 with AIM-9Ms, significantly more countermeasures and MAWS? The A-10C is slow and the Tornado GR.1 can’t turn, one has 4x AIM-9Ms whilst the other only 2x. Additionally, one also has a HMS and the other simply doesn’t again as well - they’re both equally as good as one another.

I’d prefer 9Ms at that BR honestly, and the Mirages radar missiles aren’t the best

The Mirage F1C-200 doesn’t get the best radar missiles? Guess what, the Tornado GR.1 doesn’t get any whatsoever, Magic 2s are better in ARB and AIM-9Ms are better in GRB (and we’re talking about ARB here).

Then why is the 12.3 tornado with 9Ms 12.3? What about the A-10C, or even the Jh-7A with no IRCCM at 12.3

Another example of you using overtiered vehicles as an excuse to ovetier the Tornado GR.1 if it was to ever receive AIM-9Ms, go play the Tornado GR.4 in ARB and show me your results. If you honestly believe that the Tornado GR.4 is a equal to the F/A-18A then you need to honestly take a break from War Thunder and revaluate your stance on balancing.

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47

As I said, it’s that low speed acceleration difference.

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That is why we should’ve got an engine upgrade long ago.
:|

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Upgrade? We should’ve gotten the Mk.103 engines from the very start - end of. Nations like Britain and China just don’t have a large enough community to cope and get stuff fixed like America cough cough F-15E.

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It would be great if we had Mk.103 at begin. But I meant
Better late than never. Right?

Just… Gaijin prefer ‘NEVER’ to minors like british.

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51

It’s still only 4 9Ms on a stupidly slow airframe at 11.7. I’d much rather have 2 on a more capable airframe (even if it does mean losing MAWS and HMD. You severely underestimate how much the A-10s low speed handicaps it.

It highly depends on the plane and situation. Magics are better at close range, and on dogfighters, and 9Ms are better at longer ranges. You will not be getting close and slower if you are playing something like a tornado properly. I’d much rather have 9Ms on a tornado, than magic 2s, and I’d rather have magic 2s on something like an F-5, rather than 9Ms.

I just don’t want to be facing 9Ms regularly at 10.7/11.0. They are too good for that BR on an faster airframe.

If it receives 9Ms it must be at 12.0 in order to remain balanced. 11.7+9Ms+supersonic plane wouldn’t be balanced, especially since it would only be 0.3 higher than the tornado with just 9Ls. And it’s not like that can go down either.

Obviously I said that the F-18 was balanced at 12.3, surely I haven’t said the exact opposite previously…

China absolutely does, but there’s a language barrier, and Gaijin just doesn’t really care.

I’d also like to say that all 11.7 tornados should be 11.3 right now, including the Italian and German ones.

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I will quickly say this. Im really really on the fence whether the GR4 is 12.0 or 12.3 worthy.

Im currently placing it about 12.16. BOL imo just barely pushed it over the line. Its by far one the weakest 12.3s in the game currently, but the huge supply of CMs, All-aspect MAWS and great RWR is enough to keep you mostly safe.

I’ve done a few matches in ARB in it and fairly consistantly walked away with 1 base kill + 1 A2A kill and more than a few near second kills. People just under estimate it, completely. Between the new FM and the 9Ms people are still use to it being the DOA overladen bus we had for 18 months

With the right buffs like BOL overhaul, FnF Brimstones (purely thinking ARB/ASB ground pounding here) and other general tornado buffs like FM improvements, ECM and even the radar stuff. I think it can sit reasonably comfortably at 12.3. Though compression and ARB gamemode design are never going to be overly kind to it and short of lowering it to 11.0, its always going to be a challenging aircraft in ARB

Now whether the GR1 would be a strong 11.7 but still an 11.7 or a very weak 12.0 with 9M is honestly a question I dont think can ever be answered at this moment without trying it, and I just fear we’d regret it. So Id personally prefer the 11.3 BR with 9Ls for it, I think in the long run, it would just be far healthier for it.

Maybe in the future we could get an Op Granby Tornado Gr1 with 9Ms and JP233s :P

Edit: Quick case in point. Just did a quick match, 1x F-18 kill with 9M, 1x F-16 kill with guns and would have had a base kill if I didnt mess up the drop. Could have maybe come away with an F-4 gunkill if i didnt miss judge a slight hill and crash. So I think the GR4 is fine for now. GR1 though, needs buffs

Edit 2: Another match, 2x Aim-9M kills, 1x Mig-23 and 1x F-16, with 2x base kills with an RTB between. So yeah, its fine for now at 12.3, definetly needs some buffs, though nothing overally GR4 specific

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53

It’s still only 4 9Ms on a stupidly slow airframe at 11.7. I’d much rather have 2 on a more capable airframe (even if it does mean losing MAWS and HMD. You severely underestimate how much the A-10s low speed handicaps it

You’re also severely underestimating how much of a boat the Tornado is, the A-10C and GR.1 both have their pros and weaknesses and saying one is better than the other is just a straight up lie. The A-10C as a stupid amount of countermeasures, MAWS, HMS and double the amount of AIM-9Ms as a GR.1 equipped with 9Ms as well.

Literally the only thing the GR.1 and I do mean LITERALLY is the speed advantage, they’d be pretty equal and by looking at videos on the A-10C, its very good for BR.

I just don’t want to be facing 9Ms regularly at 10.7/11.0. They are too good for that BR on an faster airframe

That’s a issue with decompression, one vehicle already suffers and by giving it AIM-9Ms, you levy the trash experience.

If it receives 9Ms it must be at 12.0 in order to remain balanced. 11.7+9Ms+supersonic plane wouldn’t be balanced, especially since it would only be 0.3 higher than the tornado with just 9Ls

Stop using other bad aircraft which are poorly balanced as an example, the Tornado IDS (11.3) should all be moved down to 11.0, they’re 11.0 worthy aircraft and wouldn’t even be the best 11.0 vehicle out there if moved down (looking at you F-5A(G)).

Obviously I said that the F-18 was balanced at 12.3, surely I haven’t said the exact opposite previously…

By saying you want the Tornado GR.1 equipped with AIM-9Ms to be 12.0/12.3 means you believe its A2A capabilities are near similar or not too far from one another, BR is a balancing method and you want to force a Tornado GR.1 into a BR range where it doesn’t belong.

China absolutely does, but there’s a language barrier, and Gaijin just doesn’t really care

I’m talking about on the main English forum, the one which is most significant.

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54

Yes, we know that the Jaguar, F-4 Phantom, Mig-27, Viggen, etc are boats.
You know what’s more of a boat than them? Su-24M, etc.

55

The Viggen???

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56

I’ve amended the post to be more accurate.
Yeah, the Viggen’s FM was changed in like 2024 or 2023, and has been a boat since.
None of these are as bad as Su-24 of course.

You can use Statshark to compare flight models of clean aircraft: StatShark - See All Player, Missile, and Vehicle Statistics

Viggen does better in negative SEP which makes sense as Tornado needs combat flaps to pull more AOA.

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Yes, we know that the Jaguar, F-4 Phantom, Mig-27, Viggen, etc are boats - You know what’s more of a boat than them? Su-24M, etc

None of them are as obese as the Tornado, the SU-24 is large but can actually turn compared to the Tornado iirc, the Viggen isn’t a boat when compared to the Tornado and so is every other vehicle you’ve mentioned - furthermore, the F-111C which is like double the size of the Tornado is a significantly more manoeuvrable aircraft.

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The Viggen is the strongest 11.3 still. Yeah, it may not be the most maneuverable plane in existence, but it is good enough to beat F-5s, Floggers and slatted Phantoms with relative ease.

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As I said previously, the F-111C should be 0.3 higher than the Tornadoes in air RB because of its maneuverability as long as they fire the same missiles.
Whichever one gets 9Ms should increase by 1 BR relative to where they should be currently, as 9Ms increase aircraft by 1 BR when compression doesn’t exist.

A-10A to A-10C: 1
AV-8B NA to Harrier GR7: 1.
Su-25 to Su-25T: 1.
Tornado IDS to Tornado GR4: 1.

And even compressed aircraft are 0.7 [1 if they were decompressed].
F-16A to F-16A [Belgians]: 0.7.

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Just wanted to say that I’d prefer to see the Tornado GR.1 move down to 11.3/11.0 instead of actually receive AIM-9Ms, I only added it as a alternative option and it definitely wouldn’t be the best option either.

Maybe in the future we could get an Op Granby Tornado Gr1 with 9Ms and JP233s :P

Or a Saudi Tornado GR.4/F.3, surprised we haven’t seen one yet lol.

I do mostly agree with everything you’ve said as well

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Whichever one gets 9Ms should increase by 1 BR relative to where they should be currently, as 9Ms increase aircraft by 1 BR when compression doesn’t exist

The addition of missiles doesn’t warrant a BR increase but the impact the combination both missile and aircraft have, it’s like when they introduced the PGM-2000 and PGM-500 onto the GR.1, it didn’t go up in BR after the split of ARB and GRB in battle rating and when the Mirage F1C-200 received the IRCCM buff it didn’t move up either iirc.

Su-25 to Su-25T

The SU-25BM exists and it’s functionally identical to the SU-25T/SU-39 in ARB minus the situational IRCM on the tail of the vehicle, also both the Harrier GR.3 and GR.1 sit at the same BR even though one has both better missiles, a RWR and countermeasures.

Furthermore it weighs less than both the SU-25T and SU-39

You’re being very selective and choosing what vehicles to make a comparison with.

F-16A to F-16A [Belgians]: 0.7

Me when F/A-18C L = F-18C (same BR)

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I literally picked all the aircraft in the game that aren’t compressed.
Bringing up Su-25BM being under-BR’d only proves my post correct. Event aircraft tend to stay under-BR’d longer due to low player counts.

If you want the GR1 to go down, perform badly in matches to impact statistics.

63

Way ahead of you there.

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64

Dude same.

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Tho it appears I am earning the same RP per match as I am with Vark… which is concerning.
SL is in the toilet tho.

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I do think 11.0 is optimistic at this time. Whilst yes the F-5A(G) with 2x 9Ls exists at the same BR, the F-5s are overperforming quite a bit at the moment and are due quite a heavy nerf. The Tornado is likely the stronger of the 2, even before its finished and at full strength.

But there is certianly no justification for it to be 11.7 at this time and should be 11.3

Now is their a path for it getting the buffs needed to warrant being 11.7 like getting BOL? Maybe. but I too would prefer the lower BR

The refit Saudi Tornado IDS is an option, but I dont think worth given we have the GR4 already, but what I really want is a Tornado IDS for the 10.0 GRB, that looks like fun gameplay and Britian is basically DOA past 10.7, so having a Tornado for that BR would be excellent. I see 2 good options for that. Either the Tornado Gr1B and be an MFG C&P or the Saudi Tornado Gr1 without its Tpod and guided weapons.

Saudi F3 would make a good premium too

But that is a matter for another thread.

But to keep it on topic,

Tornado Gr1 needs:

  • Mk103 Engine
  • 11.3 BR

All Tornado IDS need

  • BL755
  • Sky Shadow
  • Further FM development
  • Combat Thrust
  • Radar
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