I already said in this thread that if china was being added as subtree to japan, I would oppose it due to historical reasons. I would also oppose addition of chinese VT-4 to japan.
Naturally, I would oppose the addition of czechoslovakia as a subtree to the soviets (and luckily for us, stona denied czechoslovakia being subtree for soviets. at least for now).
However the issue with thai VT-4s is different. It might be china manufactured VT-4, but they sold them to Thailand. They are thai owned.
And thailand was officially added as subtree to japan.
thus thai VT-4 should follow thailand.
To give different example, i strongly oppose the placement of czech ješterka (the 30mil praga) and L-39 to the soviet TT - however if they were added as soviet L-39 (since they bought and operated the plane) and, i dont know, yugo or iraqi praga, I wouldnt see it as an issue.
Fair enough. I just couldn’t find it once when looking through subtree announcements (so devblogs for those nations), I didn’t check individual subtree vehicles.
It is interesting though, so I think I’ll look into it sometime. But it’s unrelated to VT-4/T-84, so it’ll probably be under the rework suggestion.
That’s a fair stance on it, and personally I agree, I play Japan as one of my main nations and would welcome any new additions to its tech tree, but we need to understand just how bad things where between Japan and China… I get the impression that they see the VT-4 as a sort of national milestone for their defense and therefore part of their identity, it’s like if you give, or even sell, a flag of your nation to somebody, its not “your” flag any more, they own it… but you will still be upset if they set it on fire, while you no longer own it, it still represents you and you are invested in what happens to it.
Im not going to respond in full to this as it would inherently be considered political and mods would simply delete it.
So respond if you want, but im not going further down this line. I will however say this
My identity as czech, or my nations identity, isnt defined by single flag, car, tank or a product as a whole, and its definitely not defined by what someone does with said product after they paid for it. Škoda cars were used a lot in german series Cobra 11, known for its car crashes. Im not holding it against the germans that they crashed them, if that makes sense.
There’s T-72 in german tree.
There are taiwanese vehicles in chinese tree.
There are a whole bunch of trophy tanks etc.
What’s the point? It’s not like they’re having an active conflict. I see a lot of chinese tourists coming here without any problems, a lot of them living here as well. You know what and who is a real problem in this topic? Chronic internet dwellers. They’re like karens, frankly.
Please DM and explain it to me about how bad things were/are between them I’d love to “understand” it. I would also love to hear and “understand” how it would effect a game that has NOTHING to do with politics/real world events.
Once I understand it maybe I could even switch sides and join their effort to prevent the introduction of THAI VT-4 in to the game UNDER THAI subtree, who knows!
Unfortunately, it is evident that there are significant cultural differences between us. In East Asian culture, noble people often pay attention to their words and actions. We are well aware of the huge impact that any word spoken can have. In the eyes of most Chinese players, if a person with a managerial title makes a certain comment on the topic, it undoubtedly represents the official attitude, and their comments do not explicitly mention that their plan is only temporary，this makes most Chinese players believe that gaijin will not attempt to add Chinese made vehicles to the Japanese technology tree in the future. Unfortunately, you may not understand the dissatisfaction accumulated by Chinese players due to the long-term malicious weakening of the majority of their own country’s vehicles, and the content published by the previous leak authors who had unclear relationships with gaijin directly ignited our anger. The vast majority of people feel deceived, as I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, due to our different understandings, there have been many misunderstandings. As I mentioned earlier today, we need to sit down and discuss a solution that satisfies all players, rather than attacking each other with colored glasses.
Yeah, cultural difference seems accurate. With Gaijin a lot of their wording is intentionally left open and kept half true.
There used to be an idea that there would never be top tier premiums, because nobody should buy their way to jets. But as the game progressed, things changed.
Event jets became available to buy. Gaijin argued they aren’t premium, they didn’t lie.
Later premium jets came, but only after there was rank 6. These rank 5 jets weren’t top tier, Gaijin didn’t lie.
Then eventually we even got top rank premiums, but they weren’t the top BR, so again Gaijin didn’t lie from a certain point of view.
I believe this is the same. The statement was probably true at the time. There was no plans for Chinese tanks in the Japanese tree. But by technicality they could argue that either since the VT-4 is Thai it doesn’t count as Chinese, or that the plan was made later. Both are technically true from a certain point of view, and they argue they didn’t lie.
This isn’t a new practice for Gaijin, and they act like this a lot. Personally I want to see the Thai VT-4, but I can agree that this behavior from Gaijin is something that needs to be adressed, and I can understand feeling deceived by it.
I think this is exactly the right way to see it. In the end we all just want to enjoy a video game. If we want to fight eachother we can do that in the game, but here this is not the point. We should find solutions.
I’m curious, do you guys even care about the Thai players’ opinions over this matter or are you guys gonna straight up ignore them? Thai people didn’t oppose adding their country to the Japanese TT as a subtree and they haven’t opposed the VT4 either (atleast definitely not a majority enough to cause what your people caused recently). In the end, it should be their say in the matter, not any other country’s matter whether or not their people are okay with their vehicles being added to a video game. You manufactured the vehicle, but they spent all the money to have these tanks as their own, you have no rights to talk in their name and demand these changes yourself, regardless of where their subtree is located. All you’re doing is just causing problems for matters other countries didn’t complain about before, neither Gaijin nor the playerbase benefits from all this misleaded outrage.
I mean look at Germany Leopard 2 for four nations
Sweden have better Leopard than Germany
yet don’t see German players cry about insult to their nation but all they wanted just other uparmored Leopard to be equal to Sweden not asking Leopard2 to be removed from Sweden
this entire VT-4 incident is ridiculous and silly.
Sorry for the long reply, I couldn’t get it any shorter and still fit everything I wanted to say.
This is also where I would start looking for solutions. I think at the core of this there is three sides to consider.
Thailand, who operate their tank and deserve proper representation of their nation. → Thailand should have VT-4
Japan, who need subtrees to keep up with other nations (as example I want to use Britain with South Africa, India and sometimes other Commonwealth) and are the home for the Thai subtree. → Japan should have subtrees similar to other nations, the Thai/Indonesian subtree shouldn’t be moved away
China, who made the tank and willingly exported the VT-4 to Thailand, but don’t want Japan to assume power over it due to historical issues. → The VT-4 should not be placed under Japanese ownership, even implied
Now there needs to be a solution that fills all of those basic needs/demands in a way that is fair to all of these. Personally I would put the highest priority to Thailand, who own the tank in question. Japan and China take a secondary role, where their needs should still be met, but should allow for a level of flexibility needed to find a solution.
I had a few ideas myself on this matter that I can present, and talk about their advantages/disadvantages:
Subtree Rework - Nation Folders
My first idea for the solution is not actually a new idea, and not made specifically for this issue, but it was a suggestion I made keeping similar ideas in mind.
This would consist of a rework that fundamentally changes the idea of subtrees in a way where these nations are no longer under another, but equal. They get their own research trees, and show their own nations flag and name. The functionality of sharing lineups stays, but as equals with no implied power to any nation.
Additionally national decal restrictions can be introduced, preventing the use of Japanese decals on Thai vehicles. Such restrictions are already present in other parts of the game and would be appropriate here.
Example of how France + BeNeLux would look in the nation selection, all nations get their own research trees that can be selected.
The nation shown as the “main” one and displayed in the nation bar is simply the one that was last selected.
Example of the selected Thai research tree. The Thai flag is shown in the nation bar, and the nation is named Thailand.
→ Read the full suggestion for more detail
Advantages:
Allows for more national identity for nations currently represented as “subtrees” and those that would be in the future
Allows for more space for additions by giving the space of a full research tree to all nations
Thai VT-4 can be implemented without issue, as there is no more implication of Japanese ownership or power over it.
No compromises needed
Disadvantages
Needs a lot of work and effort from Gaijin
Renaming the Techtree
This is rather self explanatory. It doesn’t change anything about the subtree system, it only changes the name and flag of the techtree, essentially making another nation the main nation while Japan is the subtree.
This could be Thailand, Indonesia, ASEAN or even a fictional solution, the specifics don’t matter as the effect is the same.
In terms of gameplay, nothing changes, but it does remove the negative implications that a nation placed under Japan has to many Chinese players.
Example for how this tree might look using the Thai nation.
The techtree is functionally identical, but it is now the Thai tree, not Japanese.
National decal restrictions for Thai vehicles can still be implemented regardless, since that seems to be a big concern.
Advantages:
Easy to implement
Reverses/removes the implied power dynamic, allowing Thailand to receive their VT-4 without issue
Disadvantages
General issues with the subtree system aren’t solved
Compromises need to be made
→ Japan loses the national tree, becomes a subtree
→ VT-4 still shares a research tree with Japanese vehicles, even if it is a Thai research tree
Possible issues with DMM, who as Japanese publisher of the game would want a Japanese techtree to exist
→ A solution would be to keep the techtree as Japan in the DMM version of the game and/or the Japanese localization, but this might be an issue with Chinese players again.
Personally I believe renaming the tree can be an adequate temporary solution while work is done on reworking subtrees as well, but I’d be interested in hearing more ideas for how to fairly solve this issue.
→ I’d be interested to hear feedback from everyone on this, meaning Thai, Chinese and any other perspectives are appreciated.
I’d also say that I fully support many of the other points brought up by Chinese players, such as fixing historical issues with vehicles and general mistreatment of the potential the Chinese tech tree could have.
That’s right Polish tank in German TT
What Germany did to Poland 80 years ago is also “Horrible”
amount of Polish people protests about it?
Zero
Thai VT-4 belongs to Thai sub three and it should be in the game even if in Japan TT just like German Leopard 2 in Sweden French and Italy
no exception.
Sorry but I find this option absolutely ridiculous just to implement thai VT-4.
A) majority of vehicles are japanese, not thai
B) no offense to thai players, but thailand was not a major power during WW2, japan was
C) again, no offense to thai players, but im not aware of any indigenous thai weapon development beside some vehicle modifications. did they develop their own jet? or MBT? SPAA?
