I have 2 problems right now with radar missiles. Feel free to leave some other tips you know about evading ARH/SARH missiles too.
1.
How do i chaff a rear aspect radar missile, assuming I can’t outrun it because it was launched from below 5-10 kms? I know it’s possible, but I find it very inconsistent. I don’t know if it will work at any range or do I have to chaff it last second while absolutely spamming chaff. I also don’t know if the missile should be directly behind me or at an angle.
At the moment I find radar missiles more deadly from rear aspect than ir missiles, because they are seemingly impossible to decoy. Kinetic evasion isn’t possible from such close range of course.
2. (partially tied with the 1st one)
What do I do when I notch someone let’s say 10km away at around 7000 meters, that is coming straight at me from lower altitude, and he keeps spamming radar missiles? I notch them all one by one, but he keeps getting closer and closer and gets on my six. I can’t stop notching, at least now when I can’t reliably defeat rear aspect radar missiles, and keeping the notch will eventually lead to my death too. Keeping the notch also becomes more and more difficult the closer he gets and the more he lags behind me.
What do you mean by a rear aspect radar missile? Like a SARH with Pulse guidance or a radar missile launched from behind you?
If its a SARH with a pulse guidance, chaffing with a little maneuvering should work regardless of aspect.
For the latter its a little more complex. Assuming worst case scenario, being an AIM-120 launched <6km of you, you can try to either notch to render the missile ineffective or terrain to lose the missile (with a mountain or multipathing). With the new nerf to multipathing I’d recommend you to just notch instead.
Once you learn how to evade them, I’d argue that they aren’t as powerful as IRCCM missiles. With S/ARH you at least get warning and by extension the opportunity to evade the missile. Take this example (From update Alpha Strike): Watch Average Su-27 Player | Streamable the opposing Su-27 wastes a lot of both IRCCM and SARH missiles on me, but with proper positioning I can easily evade his missiles. I only die to the last one as I thought it was another R-27ER but it was an R-27ET instead.
Kinematic evasion is only possible in longer ranges as that is when you will have the opportunity to bleed the missile out of its speed. However, this isn’t anything new as previously the R27s were very difficult to kinematically dodge up close.
You merge. If you maintain the notch properly, that means that you are just going horizontal against an opponent that is pushing full throttle at you and so a merge becomes inevitable. When doing so, watch out for an R-73/AIM-9M (by preflaring) and try to reverse them. Had I been able to dodge that last missile in the previous clip, I could have easily set up for a reversal and shove my own R-73 up his tailpipe.
That’s simply not true and I’d even argue that it gets more difficult the farther you get from the target. In longer ranges you only have the RWR to go off of which can be limiting when trying to deduce where the threat is coming from. At closer ranges, you can easily make out where the target is, where the missile is and how long you have until it impacts you which are all crucial to defeating an ARH.
Yes. Maybe I should’ve said “a radar missile launched from rear aspect” to be more clear. I mainly meant something like an aim 7m or aim120.
So there is enough time to go for a notch if he launched at like 5 km. But 2-3 km is still a no escape zone i bet.
I wonder if the missile that was perfectly behind you missed, because you chaffed it, or because you notched it vertically.
Ok, so basically just start preflaring once he gets close and keep notching until he passes me. I had such a scenario in an f15 vs su27sm and I died to an r73 once he got close, because I couldn’t flare it from such close range and a side aspect. It also caught me off guard, because I thought it will be another fox 3 or 1, further decreasing the distance before I realized. It was let’s say an inspiration for this thread.
I though that maybe there was some option that gives you more freedom. I guess I will have to play his game for a bit, but at least I will waste all of his fox 3/1s.
For me eyeballing 90 degrees is tricky, especially if the missile comes at me from a different plane of motion, like from below and/or from 4 or 5 o’clock (or 7/8 o’clock), and not from the horizon. If it’s launched from long range, I have plenty of time to use the RWR to put it exactly at 90 degrees and it generally comes at me from the horizon. On the other hand if you see the missile it’s easier to asses if your notching was successful.
I guess from 5km you can still notch it, but let’s say someone launches a missile exactly from behind you in no escape zone, I guess it would be like 2-3 km. If it was an irccm missile you could just flare it, if you know how to do it. If it was a fox 3, there’s nothing you can do except multipath it, but that’s not an option when you’re up high. You can’t notch it, you can’t chaff it, you can’t dodge it.
I remember that radar missiles were supposed to have difficulties tracking cold targets. Maybe that applies only for older missiles.
I remember I’ve done it a few times today. Some radar missiles were chasing me and I changed course to be at a slight angle and started spamming chaff. The missiles weren’t reacting, but last second I dumped a whole lot of chaff and they barely missed. Now I don’t know if it’s only a high risk and desperate way to decoy them last second or if this will work from longer ranges too. I also don’t know exactly how it works and how to do it successfully every time and not waste more chaff than i need to.
Well, yes but at that point you should be aware of the launching aircraft thanks to the spotting system and RWR. You can then use this info to preemptively notch to deny any incoming ARHs.
Though if you get an ARH launched at you frontally within 2-3km that is generally a sure death. AIM-7M on the other hand (and other sparrows but not the R-27s) can be dodged head on by pulling up while doing a barrel roll at optimal speed when the missile is within 0.5km. By optimal speed, I mean the speed at which your aircraft can still do sharp turns (not too high that you don’t compress but not too low that you can still maneuver well).
The preflaring is to deny him a IR missile launch as it will make it really hard to get a proper launch on the right target (you).
In closer, low speed dogfights only the R-73 is an issue as its maneuvering and its IRCCM perform best at these ranges. Similarly the AIM-9M actually excels in medium to longer ranges, where its IRCCM and kinematic range allow it to hit opponents launched at from 3km (or even 8km if you launch it head on).
Well experience is going to be the best way to learn here but be aware of what you need to notch. Against a SARH you want to notch the radar of the launching aircraft while against ARH you need to notch the missile itself. This becomes increasingly crucial in close range where slight angles can really mess you up. In the example below, notice how I had to notch the missile itself to fool its seeker.
Additionally, you need to read your RWR and what its exactly warning you about. If your RWR shows an incoming MSL, this means that its an ARH. While a flashing indicator with the name of the launching aircraft (MiG29/F15/M2K) indicates that the launch is a SARH. So the necessary info is given to you to successfully dodge it.
Sure, evading an IR missile that you are aware of is easier, I won’t argue against that. My problem is, that nothing warns you about an IR missiles launch, which IMO does not make for good gameplay and is what makes them more lethal than ARH.
The way I see it, when you launch a S/ARH at an enemy it becomes a skill check to see if the enemy can successfully avoid it, as they are warned of its existence and the direction its coming from. IRCCM missiles do the same thing (being flaring in different patterns) but don’t provide any warning, so you either have to preflare constantly (which isn’t doable in aircraft without BOL) or have god tier game sense.
This very thing happens in the previous example actually, where I get killed right after notching the AIM-120 to an R-73 which I didn’t know was coming at me.
Yeah I know about MAR and that sparrows can be defeated kinetically.
I know, I just acknowledged it and told about a scenario where preflaring would have saved me.
Against s SARH missile you can notch either the missile or the radar. It’s better to notch the missile, since radar only lights up the target for the missile’s seeker. After the launch it doesn’t really matter what the radar is locked onto, as long as it’s in lock mode, so if the radar locks onto chaff you will still get hit.
For example F4E has a radar without PD and AIM 7 E2s. Often people just chaff the radar, but the missile itself uses speed gates to know what’s the target, like PD. Radar is locked onto chaff, but the missile keeps tracking the enemy.
I generally have good awareness of what’s happening in my close proximity. I know how to flare irccm missiles and when to preflare. For me fox 3s are a much bigger threat simply because they are harder to decoy.
The only ir missile that I’m genuinely scared of is r27 et or any t variant of r24/r27. You can never know if one is coming for you, their rarity doesn’t help with that at all.
I’m not saying that you don’t, just eliminating possible misunderstandings.
Really? Notching the missile in my experience tends to allow the launch aircraft to reacquire the lock since at close distances the angle between the missile and the launch aircraft can be significant enough. As I have actually been able to get R-27ER kills against enemies that were trying to notch, but turned too far away, allowing me to regain lock.
Do you have a clip or sources to show this better?
Missiles with CW guidance also use speed gating, while missiles with Pulse guidance use range gating. This means that CW guidance missiles work like a PD radar and Pulse guidance missiles lock onto the closest target.
I don’t know if notching a missile with iog like r27 er will allow for you to regain lock on target or not, I don’t have any plane that has SARH missiles with iog. I suppose you could drop the lock and lock him again, but you probably wouldn’t know your missile has been notched, unless you see it, since your radar wasn’t notched, only the missile (unless the enemy notches both at the same time).
Remember that radars in PD mode lose lock when notched, that’s why notching the radar works to get rid off a SARH missile. Radars in standard search mode never lose lock, but just lock onto chaff instead, from any angle, but the missile still follows the original target, unless it has been notched.