Won’t be useful for events, but the He 111 H-3 and Ju-88 A-4 are also fantastic, for a more typical bomber usage.
What events???
Both are just rank II, 2nd stage daily and special tasks (plus BP challenges or specific mission score challenges) require always rank III bombers.
Strongly disagree.
Both (He 111 BR 3.3 and Ju 88 3.0) are ez prey & imho not able drop when correctly intercepted by an experienced player. You might get away with a dive attack for one or two bases with the Ju 88 A-4, but only when not running into the omnipresent SB2C / A-36 / Firefly spam. Otherwise a plain MiG 3 or P-39 ruins your day. The performance is not good enough vs fighters / interceptors at the same BR. Same as defensive armament.
The Ju 88 A-4 was for years stable at BR 2.3 - and got uptiered to 3 .0 with 2 BR rounds (7 or 8 months) when the Finish version was introduced. I stopped playing it when it reached 2.7.
Making this readable:
As someone who loves bombers it’s sad to see the state they are in - especially above 4.3-5.0 BR.
It takes a long time to grind to the main bombers of WWII, and once you there you realize you only have a 50/50 chance to actually bomb things due to half of the maps being fighter oriented. In the Capture game mode/type, bombers are pretty much useless and (for bombers) the match devolves into who can get to the ground targets first.
From 4.0, 5.0, and especially 6.0 onwards climbing is usually a death sentence due to the fast-climbing props like the Bf-109, the fact that there are no dedicated escort fighters, bomber gunners are useless, and even with manual aiming the defensive armament of bombers is often heavily outmatched by a single fighter. In my experience, it takes an order of magnitude more bullets from a bomber to defeat a fighter than vice versa (where bombers usually die in one pass).
To actually get to a base you either need to dive for the base as soon as a fighter spots you or you have to do a 180 degree turn and climb for 5-10 minutes, but even then a fighter could just climb up to you anyways. Ground pounding at such high altitudes is also inaccurate in a long-range bomber, so you’re better off just using an attack aircraft instead.
My suggestions for fixes:
- Make air superiority matches a toggle (so you can block all air superiority matches if you want to play bombers)
- Spawn bombers around 1.6x-1.8x higher than they do currently, as well as possibly moving the bomber spawns further back.
- Make separate gamemodes, one that is fighter-focused (the type of matches we have now) and one that is bomber-focused - where the objective is to bomb bases if you are a bomber, and to defend and/or attack bombers if you are a fighter
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Yes that’s what I said.
And also yes, they offer a more typical bomber playstyle where gunners and speed are your main defenses, plus both are quite durable and have great bombloads. A Ju 88 A-4 can be fast enough to where your enemies will take themselves out of the match for quite a bit by barely gaining on you. The 111 H-3 is quite durable and will get downtiers somewhat often.
The non-bomber Ju 88 C-6 is also a good challenge to actually impact the game in.
Lmao - if i read your initial reply again, we see the power of misunderstandings based on direct references.
As your statement directly refers to my recommendation with 2 specific aircraft, i was actually wondering how the hell you (as highly experienced player) could describe the B7A2 & the B-18B as “not useful for events”.
Sry & have a good one!
To the rest of your reply regarding the He 111 and Ju 88:
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I agree to a certain point that both have higher bomb loads and can be flown as “Schnellbomber”, but if I refer directly to the essay i was replying to, the fellow player struggles obviously with bomber and gunner game play in the classic sense.
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There is actually no need to use the B7A2 or the B-18B as support fighter - if the average player is solely interested in bombing bases, he can use both of them without the need to engage enemies; fighting other players in an active role is just an option.
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So it is up to the player: If he is just interested in getting to a base (and safely back to his af) in oder to fulfill tasks or events, he has to decide if he kills one or two bases with a very high success rate - or if he gambles to get through with the option to get more base kills without a guarantee to drop.
An extremely positive example of bomber game play as a fighter with a BR 3.3 P1Y1 - this amazing player killed 5 fighters with gunner skills - you might know that his aircraft has no fixed forward firing armament:
Gaijin Entertainment - Single Sign On
Outstanding performance!
Even more impressive was looking at his vehicle statistics - he manages to score impressive kill numbers in bombers…
Player was @raiaden - maybe he can share some of his widom.
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Bombers in RB are still playable, but the problem is the players… Bomber, it’s a lot about patience and most players don’t have that, i.e. around 75% of the 16 players in the team, fly horizontally to the middle (fighters and bombers) and within 3 minutes it’s usually game over for them.
The rest try to climb to take advantage of the height advantage, for greater speed and overview of the situation…
Powerful bombers (I mean four-engine - B-17, B-24, Lancasters, He-177…), are the ones that have the potential to pull fighters to the heights…
Near the ground or at low altitude, they are heavy bricks that are designed to be easily shot down…
There are tactics where none of them guarantees 100% success, but they are usable…
Gradually, from the riskiest…
- takeoff from the airport, horizontal low flight, use the bomber as a gunship
- takeoff from the airport, horizontal low flight to the nearest bomb base
- airstart, horizontal low flight, use the bomber as a gunship
- airstart, horizontal flight to the nearest bomb base
- takeoff from the airport, immediate turn left or right, flight above the treetops, guarding the position +10 km from the nearest enemy mark, raid over the target, the same procedure when returning home
- airstart, immediate turn left or right, gradual climb to 6-7 km, raid on the target and then it’s up to the player, if he wants to quickly get to the base, or if he trusts himself enough to lure the fighters to the height and fight them there with machine guns…
This is not a dogma that this is how it should be played!
Maybe someone has a different tactic or style of play and can share it…
But the only ones capable of taking the battle to the heights are bombers, and either the fighters want to or don’t…
Someone mentioned modern bombers here… Considering that they have minimal machine gun ranges against WWII bombers, the highest possible height would be their only protection…
Then there’s ECM and other things…
Maps, they’re still short maps of the tactical battlefield, if the operational battlefield were 200 x 200 km, it would be bearable for these machines…
And of course, it’s for pilots, not tankers… I guess you could still use such a strategic bomber as an anti-ship missile carrier, but not as a CAS for tanks…
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They really need a longer form game mode for this to work properly. Maybe RB EC or something like it.
It would definitely want something for heavy bombers and long range maritime reconnaissance bombers…
I am attaching a battle map I played yesterday in sim … it begs the question how many players would like to play this for a few hours…
Related to that, battle rewards etc…
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Doubt many can handle WT for a few hours, even more so playing in one game mode ans vehicle, but thankfully IIRC Enduring Confrontation allows a flow of people in and out
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The issue is that bombers shouldn’t basically have to be useless in PvP (or even just self-defense against a single fighter). Yeah, bombers IRL were designed with huge formations in mind, but we don’t have formations in game. What really should happen is a mass lowering of bomber BRs so that their defensive armament matches the offensive armament of the fighters they face. The fighters would still have the advantage due to the massive size and maneuverability disadvantage of the bombers, but it would at least be fair.
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Hello
I play sometimes with 8.0 early jets bombers (Il-28), and especially in the lasts times (I guess after the sales), the situation as become way worse with enemy teams full of low lvl prems Saab 105, Sea vixens and others who only cares about kills, and because of their bad skills, go hunt bombers at 4000m… talking about Il-28, here another (still not fixed) pretty bad problem (landing gears way too slow)
Only time I have fun playing bombers is Yak-28 in sim battles
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Why would they not go for bombers?
I’ve found that the Il-28 is one of the few effective bombers in WT, it has offensive guns, as well as a great defensive rear gun. The only issue is the compression at that BR in my opinion.
Fully agree - as with these (just a few) points:
…you present an almost unbeatable recipe for getting killed almost guaranteed for the majority of bomber players - without giving them the chance getting even remotely near to a base… at least in a 4-engine bomber - and (imho the most important part) to survive these approaches.
Why?
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Airfield take-off creates (depending on daytime and server) a 60 - 100% probability of getting team killed by a random moron.
I see barely a bomber surviving such approaches. Even stuff like Bv238s (which will spawn slightly above & behind the airfield) gets murdered by team mates. -
Even considering that US 0.50 cals out-range almost everything - just a minority is able to use gunners and dodge incoming fire at the same time. Flying tree-top kills most of your vertical options to dodge whilst a diving fighter has usually so much excess speed that your return fire can’t be effective due to the small time window you have to shoot - but he has a very large target - a few 20 mm hits kills you.
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Turning left or right & gradual climb does not work in most cases - the contrails will reveal your position at least above 5,5 km (on Pacific maps usually 6,5) - and you will get spotted (dot & contrail) & out-climbed
The sole exception from the above might happen in case:
- if the enemy team is completely unskilled
- own interceptors push the enemy team (in front of you) low
- there are heavy clouds up to 10 km
- friendly strike aircraft lure enemies with IC spawn low
- friendly strike aircraft disrupt the climb phase of non-airspawn fighters
- you are in 6-8 vs 6-8 lobby
- you get escorted by a Brigand, B7A2 or T-18B
… and the bomber pilot is battle hardened and uses a B-17, Pe-8 or a Halifax and manages to get above 7 km. And most of this has to happen in the same match…
To be fair:
Some of your suggestions worked ages ago, but in these days they are long gone as the game changed completely.
Low level runs worked in the past as:
- Fighter players actually climbed in order to get a better positioning for a fight with the enemy aircraft
- There were no masses of strike aircraft like today
- There were no (a few exceptions) ai planes compromising your position
- There were no low alt contrails
- The map design supported these runs like Operation Iskra
I played all 4 engine bombers (except Tu-4) quite successfully with a mix of side climbing or reverse climbing (180° degree turn after spawn) on an old and inactive account, but those were the days without contrails at low alt and there were no respawning bases or this “red square” marking on the map like today.
This is actually correct - due to a deterioration of the average player skill combined with various decisions by gaijin killed bomber game play for heavy bombers.
I won’t repeat them in detail but only guys:
- on selfish grinding tours (just looking for zero skill SL & RP like most Ju 288 players)
- with an exception passion for bombers
- with exceptional gunner and flying skills
- with exceptional high tolerance levels regarding getting killed
…fly bombers today.
Based on what i see daily in prop Air RB the “grinders” have a share of 90-95%. And this is fully intended by gaijin - they don’t care about bomber game play.
And no half-most decent pilot is motivated to use them - without having the skill to make a difference and to support your team bombers are actually weakening their team as their game impact is (almost) zero.
There are some exceptions, but the best example of how much gaijin cares about bombers wast the last battlepass vehicle, the PBM-5. Zero chances to get to a base, way to slow for its BR, a free kill.
Good point - as long as you have to kill a very small number of bombers compared to fighters in order to fulfil daily or special tasks, there is no reason not to go for them.
But to e fair: The fellow player is somehow correct, the average bomber pilot is even less skilled than the average fighter pilot…
This was actually a serious thread.
You might re-read your above mentioned statement multiple times in order to realize how ridiculous this request is.
The last time that happened was 1940 - and just because the RAF was unable to put cannons in their fighters. GER, FR and the USSR had already 20 mm cannons in their fighters…and the USAAF planned to implement 37mm cannons…
Btw - try to name some bombers with 30/37/45 or 50 mm defensive guns…
This won’t change anything.
This strategy (“the bomber will fight his way through”) failed miserably. Bomber formations were unable to defend themselves vs fighters.
Read some books man…
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I know it’s a bit off topic, but considering 37mm HE can punch through 15mm of steel - 50mm to Hornet’s armored windshield is one of the most hilarious shots you’ll ever get, because 50mm 1,8kg shell.going 900m/s can not defeat the windshield, and canopy is eternal and made of 5cm thick steel beams apparently, and with a tiny bit of luck plane takes no damage other than windshield going black. Just like in real life.
Damage is all over the place.
Damn Japanese destroyer’s 127mm 23kg HE shell going 910m/s has penetration of like what, 28mm. So in other words, it fails vs Pz.IV side because it has no momentum whatsoever.
IRL I can bet it would cave T-34’s upper side plate in and I wouldn’t be surprised if same applied to front just due to momentum alone.
I wonder if we’ll ever see damage that is remotely realistic.
2 Likes
As we wrote, everyone can try their bombing tactics, they can consider some of what I wrote to be nonsense and something might work…
The game has been running for over 10 years and there have been a lot of players who have played other flight games…
After some time, they said the direction the game is going is not what they imagined, new players will come and either want to learn or it will be a dull grind for 2 minutes and another battle…
But now to the maps…
- those maps have the character of a tactical battlefield, and therefore the big bombers are kind of outnumbered here, because you can’t completely miss them in an air game…
- in order to fly somewhere, you need speed, that’s why I use the first, max the second level of bombs … the others are heavy, you’re slow and you can’t climb much on these maps, when you reload you have a lot of fuel again
- the biggest advantage of bombers is not being seen - that is quite difficult… against bombers there are (markers, clear sunny maps, spotting system, they are too loaded with fuel, a lot of work with training the crew, who still shoot at a short distance … etc…)
- what came attack aircraft with a bomb load that has the ability to destroy the base … also it is against big bombers
- a lot of players are allergic to bombers because they are slow and take away space in the team from fighters…
- and so we could continue…
I would say bombers should be scaled to map size…
E.g…
- the ideal amount of fuel
- the load of bombs could be chosen by the player
- clouds, fog, snow, overcast, equal number of day/night battles
- the space of the combat zone itself distributed over a larger area of the map, both symmetrically and asymmetrically…
- limited bombload - for fast planes with bombs…
- and there are other ideas here in the topic
It’s completely “amazing” when you read on the wt wiki about long-range naval bombers, i.e. also four-engined ones, that unfortunately, in this game, they cannot be used for what they were intended for…
In aviation it is an ordinary bomber and in naval, with ultra-precise AAA, it is also useless, especially when these machines attacked submarines, military convoys, coastal facilities, where the biggest enemy was a destroyer with a corvette … so what are they in the game for. .?
At the same time, it would be enough to build in several maps with islands and AI ships, a port … e.g. develop an old map of Norway…
A lot of things could be written about it…
Ill take that challenge :)
Vickers Type 416 Wellington (II)
Ok technically its just a testbed for the cannon & sight, but wheres the fun in that?
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Versus the high number of interceptors in the early war that’s true, but that doesn’t change the fact that the bombers were meant to defend themselves. We don’t have formations in game (or escort fighters), so some sort of compensation needs to be enacted. Moving bombers down to where they can fight on equal footing is certainly a more serious suggestion than “basically nothing can change” (paraphrasing).