This is honestly something i feel does need serious fixing. If not in ARB, at least in air sim.
Not even deny kills, just massively increase spread if the bomber is spinning or similar. Right now it remains a perfectly stable turret even while falling to death and i have had quite a few cases with my banshee where a successful run on a tu-4 turned into my plane getting disabled as i was extending away while it was spinning helplessly.
Bomber gunners are essentialy 3-plane stabilised. So as long as you are within a firing arc…
Upside down, pulling 7G? Who cares. They will keep shooting perfectly straight and tracking the target.
And with 20mm canmons being able to rip your tail off with 1 shell it gets ridiculous although I’ve been pelted by B-17 I thought I made dead enough more than once.
I’d like to show you something maybe interesting.
The match was generally uneventful, at the beginning I had a chance to land a burst from directly vertical at B-17, only damaging him a bit - I don’t normally go out of my way to hunt bombers, but flying 1500m below me is too big of a bait for me to not take it. Then it got demolished by my team.
At the end of the game I engaged another B-17.
The bomber in the video received a good burst from his fellow A-26C (B-17 was the 1st one to shoot, but A26 stole his base, so good sportsmanship on boths sides). It turned his fuselage black and good portions of the wings orange/red I understand, he might have had 100 12,7mm holes in there (I mean, I counted 60, maybe more, but good portion of damn would have gone through and through) but god damn, the aerodynamic penalty to the wing from a few 12,7mm holes is interesting (the fuselage got hit by like 70% of the bullets)
Then it got hit repeatedly by my twin MG151/20 stealth belt and my MK108 cannon. How many 30mm? It’s honestly hard to tell. There are 3 “guaranteed” MK108 holes (1 in wing, 2 in fuselage one is small, but that’s how it sometimes works), and probably some that did not appear (in the tail we have Mk108 pattern shrapnel). The 1st burst I land generally doesn’t show MG151/20 holes but in slow motion it’s clearly visible that about a dozen shells hit, and most likely 3 MK108 30mm HEIT shells (bigger boom)
During 3rd pass according to slow mo I land 2 MK108 shells, 1 in the fuselage (no hole shows up) and 1 in the wing.
Anyway, while the plane goes black, engines are dead or dying, rudder is missing, I, as a fighter, can’t tell that, as I can’t get anywhere close or else I’m facing a great threat.
Furthermore, fires are nowhere near as dangerous to big planes as they are to fighters, and oftentimes bombers can burn for several minutes.
And yeah, this is the last guy. But imagine if I had any teammates around who would have shown up before my final pass - according to many forum members, that wouldn’t have been a killsteal, just a normal case of “you couldn’t finish it, so someone else took it, fair play”.
Imagine further buffing B-17 damage model without taking into account that damage is all over the place, cannons are inconsistent and bomber gunners oftentimes simply can’t be avoided.
The damage in this game needs an overhaul. And Severe Damage mechanic needs fixing. If you turn half a plane black while taking out a few engines and setting it on fire - maybe it’s good idea to award you the kill even if someone else fires the final shot.
And mind you, I was firing stealth belt, so 1 in 5 APHE, 1 in 5 AP-I, and these are usually barely visible.
I think i have a solution for the bomber problem…
Give every person in the vehicle designated “bomber” its own bases. This to prevent base stealing by strike aircraft (like wyvern) and premium bombers like the Ju-288.
Every bomber has its own bases, when every bomber player has destroyed their bases, e.g. 3-4 bases per players, the airfield can get attacked.
Or, when X amount of bases have been destroyed, the enemy airfield can get attacked. While keeping the bases that havent been destroyed yet, available to the player so that person can still destroy a base.
Also, increase the spawn altitude of bombers to a minimal of 5000 meters.
Well, it makes some sense that each bomber has its designated bombing target. A base, a bridge, field depot etc. so people don’t have to count on fair play (which is not guaranteed).
I wish each bo ber player had his own bomber squad, where they can control 1 bomber at a time. More targets, more value, and I think more fun in general. The entire game mode neede to be heavily adjusted, though.
But spawn at 5000m is a goddamn joke. A lot of fighters start to heavily lose performance past that point, and it would turn all faster bombers basically either unkillable or way more deadly than fighters when engaged
Fighters are not supposed to attack bombers. Interceptors and air defence fighters do, and they have an air spawn.
XD
So basically only 6.0-6.3 interceptors would have a chance, and even then only some of those as Ta-152H would most likely fail to get high enough before bomber is diving towards AF AAA.
G8N1 would probably reach 6700m by the time it reaches map middle with its hilarious ability to 1-shot anyone from 2km away.
My idea is, just give bomber players a separate game mode. Lets call it Space(bar) Warrior. You look at a blank screen at one point a “press spacebar in 60, 59, 58” etc. prompt appears. If you press spacebar the time it reaches 0, +/- 2s, you get a reward. That would perfectly simulate the skill level required for 5000m spawn B18B, without annoying everyone with unreachable bomber at 10km EVERY DAMN GAME.
i dont think its going to be that much of a problem though…
And those usually have even worse climb rates.
A Pe-8 versus Wyvern is definitely one of the fairer matchups currently, though, since the Pe-8 gets at least one 20mm to fire at you with.
Don’t get me wrong - i actually appreciate your dedication to bombers and bomber game play. But there is a difference between passion & dedication and requesting the impossible.
You simply can’t expect that a bomber can win a 1 vs 1 vs a fighter.
Irl there were just 2 effective defensive mechanisms for bombers without escorts:
Gaijin denies both strategies (with some exceptions) as they focus on PvP interactions and have no interest to support PvE actions without giving PvP players options to interact.
I mean technically seen the proposal is not really that kind of strange when you think about it. The majority of heavy bombers US flew above 7 km - and fighting at 7 -8 km requires completely different approaches / tactics for fighters. The power loss of most fighters was the goal of coming in high - as planes like B-17s were thanks to their turbochargers quite fast up there.
Game play wise i agree as in the current set up it would create free SL for a lot of fast climbing bombers. So without substantial changes (including air spawns for all and most important spawn locations / distance to bases) this request makes no economic sense for gaijin.
“Actchyuly” B-17 was slow at every alt, and even slower with its high combat load (but you’re right turbochargers greatly helped its performance which would be abysmal without such advanced solutions).
IRL interceptors climbed in anticipation of a bomber raid. And it was boring as hell.
At 7500m Fw 190 is still chuggin along around 600km/h, yeah, not optimal, but IRL they weren’t hosed down by coordinated, accurate fire with inifinite ammo supply from 2km away.
I don’t think WT is the game for “historical reenactment”. Not with mixed games, random team compositions, 25m time limit and general boredom of Air RB climbing.
I mean, it’s a guaranteed death for Pe-8, but you can’t just expect to survive in Wyvern unless you score a pilot snipe or you’re attacking from above after half an hour of getting into position that is :)
But if bombers were on the whole moved down to where their defensive armament isn’t entirely inadequate to take out an approaching fighter, it would allow for PvP players trying out bombers as a sort of gunship and it would add depth to PvE because bombers wouldn’t have to basically 180 right off the bat to climb just so they can have a chance of making it to a base (since the vast majority of bombers just can’t defend themselves).
Gaijin could even lower the bomber spawn a bit if they implemented this change so that even if bombers seriously side-climb the lower-BR planes (especially interceptors) could still reach them without taking 8-10 minutes to do so.
Or you could attack it from below, where it doesn’t have any 20mm turrets? Fighters/interceptors having to have more strategy than just “attack” is better than bombers being utterly defenseless (and again, the Pe-8 is pretty well-situated in terms of BR).
…Wouldn’t that reduce the depth of gameplay since all you’d have to do is fly in a straight line to your target?
But by doing so, even if you turn off after shooting them down, you’ll inevitably fly past and behind them. The only angle where you’d be ‘safe’ at every point is a level attack from the side where you turn into his direction and fly very near his burning spinning wreck.
would be assessed by gaijin as a plane class worth to play in a PvP setup, we would not have these discussions.
As long as the majority of fresh players sees wt just as “CoD with vehicles” gaijin won’t change their current view on things:
So technically seen gaijin offers what the majority of their paying customers wants to see. Gaijin found a way to allow every rookie to play wt (and subsequently to spend money) with the lowest skill possible.
I would have no problems fighting B-29s with a plain 190 D-9 - we had this in the past - but the point & click target group (“kill, kill,kill”) without any relevant experience would try to kill them from below and behind without any significant excess speed - the forum would be full with complaints about op bombers.
A no go for gaijin.
I am not sure if the majority of Ground RB players shares this view :-)
I saw countless guys dying with high speed zoom climbs from 12 o’clock low - reasons as described by the fellow player above.
I disagree. The only “safe” way to attack is a high speed pass from 12 o’clock high - diving with a high attack angle and continue diving after the kill in front and not behind him. No risk to get killed by manual or ai gunners when performed fast enough - even if the Pe-8 is spinning through the air.
The main challenge is to get enough alt advantage to get the necessary speed in your dive and to get front of the Pe-8. If he dives or banks to the left or right to show his side profile you might have to repeat this. Tough job if he got at 7 km or higher.
That’s my suggestion, but turned 90deg so you’re coming from the side instead.
What I said isn’t a trailing attack, more like this:
Which keeps you safe from all the guns, even the one on the nose. Then you have the option of going above or under him on the way out, and this doesn’t require an altitude advantage.
Nice picture :-)
I agree with your view as an attack from co-alt with deflection shots requires way less efforts regarding time than to get above and in front of the Pe-8, but it bears the risk that he turns away from you; usually in the most inappropriate moment.
And keeping a 90° angle for an attack from the side is impossible as the Pe-8 is flying forward, so even if you manage to time your attack perfectly in a 90° angle, you have to reduce your angle in order to stay away from the 20 mm turret on top. That’s why your green line shows a curve.
Depending on the speed of both aircraft extremely difficult to execute properly. And it does not solve the general issue - your time window to fire is rather small at higher speeds and the side profile is compared to an attck from above a much smaller target.
The nose gun is within a very steep dive from above no danger as the 7,62 has a very small upward firing angle (+ 35°) and auto gunners can’t track and fire at you if you are fast enough.
So i agree to disagree.
I’ve pretty much only used this in Ground RB where they are far too focused on chasing their next free multikill and not looking out for a fighter. In Air RB I dunno, Pe8s are quite rare there.
Yes, that curve is intentional.
By coming from his ~2 o’clock, you can keep the nose pointed in his general direction while approaching, so you can shoot and get away without crossing behind the dorsal gun position.
If from 3 o’clock, you’d need to aim well ahead to stay flying in that position relative to him, and when you turn in to shoot you’d fall behind. So the solution is to come from slightly ahead so you account for that well in advance.
At first, sure it’s a little weird to behave more like a missile, but after one or two runs you get the hang of it.
It is, however I use this for Ground RB when I have the altitude to set up an attack properly. With airspawns being quite close to the battlefield and relatively high up, many attacks on Pe8s have to be directly from low front and pitching in at very low speed.
Climbing so far above them like you suggest is unfeasible unless I have the opportunity to just sit there well above their airspawn and not have to go after any enemy aircraft before that, or that I’m not doing the usual thing of sitting right in front of said airspawn so the enemy is more inclined to fight me when they do show up.
I’m a natural born artist.
omg that route looks really like the route I once took in il2gb. Bombed Dover from near Wissant, where I was the fighter cover starting from Calais. Definitely fun to have this kind of game play in WT, formationing with squaddies etc.
