The Pantsir SM-SV is Simply Too Strong, Russian Bias as Clear as Day

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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1190

Another person acting like only the USSR/Russian CAS was problematic, amazing

ALL FnF helis were problematic, Kh-38s became available to another nation, AASM Hammers were problematic, glide bombs (especially ones with IR seekers) were problematic, but no, it’s just that one nation that has been destroying GRB

The Pantsir wasn’t a good addition, but nobody should be surprised that Gaijin added it after giving CAS so many long range spammable weapons and FnF weapons on helis that are almost immune to the existing anti air

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1191

No other in the world to my knowledge unless you wanna wait another 3 decades.

And they are all still opressive if you still haven’t figured it out. Russia may be on top with CAS, but that doesn’t mean that they make all other nations CAS irrelevant just so you know. This includes helicopters from everybody.

And let’s say Russia didn’t get this broken CAS weapon and say another nation did, and the new Pantsir followed, you’d still have the masses saying “Oh my god, this nation got something good so Russia had to get something to counter it!!!” and all the other usual bs, so it doesn’t even matter at this point.

Just so y’know, maybe a year after this was added, you can probably go look at the multitude of forums and youtube videos glazing about how much the Pantsir S-1 has fallen from grace and how easy it is to deal with, especially since more modern stuff got added over time it became slowly more and more irrelevant to a point. Because CAS players knew, just like with all the other SAM systems, they could drain it of it’s missles since they almost alwayshave more than what it carries.

The hell I’m on about? I get Russia/Chinas CAS has been opressive, but all nations have been. That doesn’t mean you just pin the CAS problem on Russia. That’s a bad faith argument, you’re only criticizing Russia because their CAS is the most “op”. So if Russias CAS is the most OP, I can only imagine what the other nations brings that are “lesser” to an extent and how that’s gonna shaft all the Anti-Air players as well.

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1192

if you genuinely dont understand the fundamental difference between Kh38s and LMURs compared to EVERY other munition from other nations then talking to you has absolutely 0 point.

There is a massive gap in performance between Kh38s and "AASM Hammers, or mavericks, or brimstones, or spices, or HOSBOs, or literally anything else. And that is on top of the fact that Russia has had an SPAA that is more than capable of shutting down all of the other previously aforementioned munitions without too much of a problem… at 12.0.

a weapon being spammable doesnt mean it is immediately good. There is more to it than just “theres a lot of them = broken.” Thats not how it works.

Not only is the best system ingame to intercept any and all FnF missiles from a helicopter, it is also THE best system at killing helicopters. How are you not getting that?

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1193

Congratulations, blame the west for not investing into SACLOS systems that render that fany LIDRCM useless or just the fact that “sitting still” almost makes you invisible to a SAM in a helicopter.

There is a gap, but that doesn’t mean that any of those munitions are ineffective. If that was the case, the BUK running off it’s KD wouldn’t be so abysmal compared to the IRIST.

Actually in this case yes it does. If you run into not a brainless CAS pilot, they’ll usually pop up spam a few dumb munitions, pop back down, then come at you from a different angle and do the same exact thing or just gun you down because they’re already in a position where the range of the SAMS don’t have the luxury of standoff distance, not to mention they can’t even move half the time because they’re so big and are almost always stuck in 1 place.

Now I have to ask, why is this the current game design, because effectively this means SHORADS are the most optimal in this scenario, not because Gaijin did that on purpose, it is just because players want small maps. So what’s the sense in small maps then adding longe range SAMS that relatively can’t use their advantage of long range and instead waste most the game playing interceptor because they are always in a disadvantage state by default.

Then still giving nations more stuff in the CAS department, regardless if Russia is on top in the current envrionment.

Why are we not solving the issue of the game design for ground?

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1194

Ok, lets have a looksie at the best A2G ordinance from other nations.
Russia: A Mach 2.2 missile with massive warhead, IR seeker or GNSS+SAL. LMUR with the only high loft profile in the entire game and a warhead that kills via overpressure (and it strikes the rooftops)
USA: Newly added SLAMERs on Super Hornet it get 4 of, or mavericks that fall out of the sky and their damage on hit is well, unreliable is putting it lightly. Oh and JAGMs which are using low loft BUT atleast they now use hellfire damage profile.
Germany: Laser guided Brimstones or IR glidebombs that are unable to be released while supersonic.
Italy: See germany
France: IR Hammers that are just a rocket assisted bombs, only saving grace is that they have long booster meaning they dont lose speed as much as mavericks.
China: IR glidebomb or now, an IR cruise missile. Neither supersonic.
Sweden: IR glidebombs or mavericks or laser guided Brimstones.
Japan: Oh wow, would you look at that, the only nation with Kh38s other than russia. Surely this has not created massive waves everywhere with “delete Kh38s from MKM” being shouted from the mountains. Japan CAS is the only one ingame on par with russia.
Israel: 7 trillion glidebombs OR mavericks, i am truly amazed.
GB: See germany/Italy

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, i wonder what the other nations bring that is lesser. Truly this is a mystery worthy of the Scooby Doo group

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1195

It doesn’t matter that JAGMs, AASM Hammer, Spices, HOSBOS or whatever other long range, spammable A2G weapons that are available to the other nations aren’t AS powerful as the Kh-38MT and LMURs.

THEY STILL ARE DESTROYING GRB

These weapons having long ranges means that most SAMs have trouble dealing with the planes that deliver these weapons and them being spammable means that most anti air cannot deal with the amount of ordnance that is being sent towards them and their allies.

You are acting like blufor CAS hasn’t been ruining GRB matches as well. It doesn’t matter that JAGMs, Spikes and PARS weren’t guaranteed kills, as long as they dealt damage to important components they did their job. It doesn’t matter that blufor AGMs are slow, they still need to be intercepted, otherwise they pose a threat to your team.

Intercepting A2G weapons costs munition and most SAMs didn’t have the luxury of a huge supply of missiles and a lot of them couldn’t even properly intercept incoming ordnance.

You can’t say that FnF weapons being spammable isn’t problematic when defending against them is almost impossible.

It doesn’t matter that the USSR/Russia is better in this department, the Pantsir is a direct result of the huge problem that CAS has become in general and you don’t want to admit that.

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1196

Yes, they are definitely so powerful that they are destroying GRB, disregard the fact that youd have to be an idiot to not be able to intercept everything you mentioned there with regular pantsir.
Oh and it does actually matter that they arent as powerful as Kh38s or LMUR because the gap between them is a massive chasm. I dont want US or german version of Kh38s in the game. I want kh38s and LMURs out of the game because they are not just “better than everything else” but VASTLY better than everything else, to the point that comparing them to one another as equals or semi equals is a joke.

you are so close… so close to getting the core of the issue at hand… youre almost touching it.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, youre again, just tip toeing around the god damn problem. Have a wild guess which missile system excelled at this for years and still does. I will give you a moment to use your last remaining braincells to rub them together.

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1197

Great, now instead of comparing their effectivness against tanks in this regard

let’s compare this to all the current lightly armored SPAA in the game, because if 1 gets through, you’re pretty much dead.

Actually let me grab Israel since that’s a great example
“7 trillion glidebombs” I wonder how many they outta throw out before the average SAM from what, 2015, or 2025/4 run out of missles because they got more to spare than any of the SAMS.

Golly gee, it’s almost like players were begging for more SAMs sytems before the Kh-38 was ever added because CAS was a huge complaint way back then. Then we got Kh-38s added and then complaints for better SAMS grew more until now.

You can say the KH-38 exacurabted the issue, but I’m not ignoring the fact that before all the Kh-38s, CAS was still a problem then.

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1198

Okay, so you’re saying because the Pantisr S-1 was the best at intercepting munitions, it “nerfed” CAS… yet they’ve still dominated after it’s iteration… but let me move on. So you’re saying because basically most of all the modern day SAMS can’t do what the Pantsir does, the Pantsir should of never been added, and all the nations should only get long range SAMS and CAS should just remain the way it is? Removing Kh-38s won’t change anything but Russia not being dominate at top tier, so I’m trying to understand what the solution is here.

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have you played SPAAs? Do you know how slow a g l i d e b o m b is? That is plenty of time to intercept it. Spices are currently at 13.0 lowest BR. This means that they only see top tier SPAAs (unless someone is trying to be extremely funny in 13.0 with a shilka), so thats NASAMS, CLAWS, SkySabre, Aster, Type03, and then obviously Pantsir and BUK.
Dying to glide bombs means one of 2 things.

  1. there is no SPAA alive at the moment to intercept the glide bombs
  2. the SPAA player has suffered a tragic car accident that has left him completely blind in both eyes and cannot see the slowly approaching bombs on the radar.
    The highest amount of Spices a plane can carry is 16 for sweden and israel and 8 for typhoons
    Every single one of the top tier missile systems above have more than 16 missiles.
    I dont know what you are currently smoking to try and make spices as some SPAA killer. You have to be blind, deaf, have one weak arm and the other arm be amputated to not be able to intercept a spice bomb especially if it was released from distance.
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1200

should the pantsir have been added in 2023? no, no it shouldnt have
should the regular pantsir be ingame at this point, yes
should pantsir sm sv be added at this point in time? no

its just that simple

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1201

No, no I know how slow glidebombs are, I get what you’re saying. But the ratio of bombs a plane carries to the amount of missles the average SAMS carries is inadequate.

And again, why are the SAMS already in a position that the plane can throw a glidebomb before the SAM can fire on them, that’s the big quesiton here. Are the SAMS glorified interceptors because what CAS throws is so slow they can just shoot it down, or are they first and foremost interceptors for planes before they actually get close enough to them.

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WE AREN’T ARGUING THAT IT IS A GOOD ADDITION OR THAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADDED

We are trying to explain to you why it has been added and all you are doing is acting like there was no problem and that Gaijin added the new Pantsir just for the heck of it

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1203

It is that simple you’re right. The regular Pantsir should just be added to the game now, and the current state of all CAS should remain the same.

Then the SM SV comes 2 years later when CAS gains abilities that players want that would render the Sm SV “useless” so that it’s mini-interceptor missles can’t do anything on the same small maps we’ve always played on because apparently going more modern on these small maps is that simple.

And to clarify the second paragraph. CAS players would want something that makes the SM SV useless because the first thing they’re gonna say (like they are now)

That’s not fair this 1 country devoloped a SHORAD that can literally protect SAMS from all the ammo I fired at it.

Because it’s not like the west didn’t know the Pantsir existed and had more than a decade to figure something out, it’s just they did not care enough or see a need to devolop something for this. Because in all their wars, Air Defence was air superiority.

Russias wars painted a different picture and Anti-Air was their main focus over Air superiority.

It’s not like I hear DCS players crying a storm if they gotta deal with a Pantsir and a SAM at the same time, because at least they understand different nations bring different things to the table and it’s not some even battlefield where all threats are symmetric.

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1204

oh dear lord.
The problem WAS RUSSIA.
The nation with THE BEST CAS.
The “problem” isnt that a nation got a new SPAA, its that THE nation with THE best CAS just got THE best SACLOS spaa in the game to provide a safety blanket for RUSSIAN CAS thats already THE best ingame.
I dont know for what reason that bvvd has pulled out of a hat they decided to add SM SV but giving it to russia when their SPAAs are completely functional and good is the god damn problem.
Because every other nation has less powerful CAS munitions that are completely counterable by the already existing S1

We didnt need SM SV because again, the regular Pantsir, especially since the addition of radar screen that lets you become a no flyzone due to how it affects missile guidance, was powerful enough to deal with NATO CAS, be it planes or munitions.
The only, and i say only outlier is the japanese MKM because its using russian ordinance.

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1205

No.

The problem was CAS in general.

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1206

Once again my brother in christ.

Before Russia became the nation with the best CAS, was everyone just talking out their asses when they said CAS was opressive from all nations and was basically stomping everybody before the Pantsir got added.

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1209

Gaijin wont do it, bigger maps = longer games.
Longer games = Longer queue times.

Also makes the game less accessible to the top tier premium players.

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1213

And to add onto this.

You’ve basically only said Russia shouldn’t of got SPAA that’s good at what it’s designed too do, but let’s think. Maybe Russia wouldn’t of gotten it if CAS across the table wasn’t being scaled up to a level that was becoming harder to deal with. So it shouldn’t of been a surprise the Pantisr S-1 was added, then got overshadowed as CAS kept getting more stuff.

If you never wanted the Pantsirs, CAS should of equally never of been able to carry certain weapons, or take certain loadouts that always left SPAA at a disadvantage. This is literally the average CAS player right now. They want more and MORE stuff and then don’t expect more modern iterations for ground to be added to make up for it.

And the reality is that Gaijin isn’t going to buffer the game at a holding point because for example, Russia has a SAm system that the west doesn’t have to equal proportions for intercepting munitions. If WarThunder players are going to be childish and scream “that’s not fair” because of doctorine. Then CAS should of been held back to reflect that change until maps were adjusted to bring the advantages the normal SAMS would have along with the Pantsir systems. 2 systems that are powerful in their own respective departments.

Another good example of this. Remember how every glazed the R-73, said it wasn’t needed “it was too overpowered”. “The Aim9m can’t do what it does.”

The R-73 was best at close range, while the Aim9m was good at much longer ranges while both had ICCRM, but it’s found the R-73 is was more susctepible to flares in most cases versus the 9m.

Again, both equally capable missles able to express their strengths because air battles allow for that.

Ground battles doesn’t allow for that dynamic with long range SAMS, where the threat is put defensive before they actually reah the SAM. Instead it’s SHORAD territory because they’re already at a range where the SAM is virtually fuc***.

But there’s nothing to complain about anymore here, the SM SV got added because the playerbase thinks they know what balance is, but let CAS roll off the rails for a while, but just happened to be super convenient Russia got access to the most busted of it all so now they can just say “Russian cas is op, Russian bias” and pretend none of the other nations weren’t or still are offenders, mixed with the fact map design also screws up the issue that players also don’t want changed.

So why should Gaijin even listen to the players at this point, in the current state of the game the SM SV makes sense and is a consequence of the players, because everyone thought on the previous dev server that because the BUK had the best stats on paper, it was gonna be game changing, and then took it on custom maps to show off it’s strength that wouldn’t be reflected in actual games. So no surprise the IRIST was the one that ended up on top.

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Sure, there are 2 nation ig rn.

They gave the Kh-38 to another nation, but at the same time, they gave the Russians the tool to be the only ones who can actually use those Kh-38s.