It’s alr, I’m sure there’s something
The main problem people have, is that once gain Russia has a SAM system that can deny enemy CAS and CAP play.
The problem is if you are agains it, enemy CAS/CAP can move relatively freely, while your own is gone.
This is a proble, due to the fact how CAS is a problem. One side of the match has it completely denied, while other can use relatively safely.
Thats like saying the Leopard 1 and the 2A7V have similar advantages and disadvantages because they use APFSDS. Not wrong but kinda underselling the things that are different about them.
And as it stands very few nations have MMW radar guided AGMs on their planes thats why Gaijin didnt add them, because it would be unfair.
We dont have Meteors on Eurofighters, because it would be unfair.
The US and Germany dont get their most advanced darts, because it would be unfair.
Gaijin can just choose to not add stuff when it affects balance negatively especially when the tech tree in question already has top tier worthy SPAA.
If CAS gets this close it should be able to kill you, thats alright. The problem is the kill pressure of the SM SV at high ranges compared to the rest, its magazine depth and its reliability against LDIRCM helicopters compared to the other 12.7 SPAA. I know the ITO exists but russia gets a one size fits all solution at 12.7 while everyone else needs 2 SPAA to do the same job but worse.
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SM-SV has very few disadvantages vs other SAMs while almost everything else about it is exclusively advantages
That alone makes it overpowered and require nerfs
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That’s where map design comes into play. Unlike Nuclear Thunder, there’s a lot of maps where you can, quite easily too. In Nuclear Thunder, SAMS are already in a position where they have the range and multiple layers to hold players off from taking advantage of them, like they can in Ground RB.
Basically no players feel much pressure against SPAA unlesss it so happens to be an IRIST, then maybe they’ll consider it a threat. (Unless the map is Afghanistan)
The SM SV actually adding pressure is the 1st part of an SPAAs job, deterrence.
Don’t take this as rude, but you basically explained part of Russias AD. All in one, can deal with a variety of threats, and they have dedicated vehicles to protect the actual SAMS.
Other countries basically put their “heavy” SAMS in that role, but they are more reliant on a much wider deployment of these vehicles to meet that same effect.
Now combine that with everybody wanting fast paced gameplay, and start groaning the second a semi-big map like Red Desert gets into que.
How you are going to ask for fast paced gameplay, on small maps, where reaction time is everything, then add half an Air Defence Complex that can be seen from across the map, and expect that to work. Versus the more mobile SPAA
Yeah thats very cool and western CAS works by popping a metric ton of FnF LOAL munitions towards the enemy until there just a ton of wrecks. And western tanks work by punching a dart thats not 2+ decades old straight through ERA, because they can.
Do you know that both of these things are not in the game, because it would be unfair? Thats because this is a video game and Gaijin doesnt have to add things based on the doctrine of the tech tree or the technical progress of the country behind.
They have no problem keeping stuff from being added too early or without equal precisely because of balancing. The SM SV was and is still an unnecessary addition.
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Its designed for this but in game it just gets slimed from close range by guns or smart munition. And if someone brings harm let alone kh31pd, you cant do anything at all. While sm sv keeps its abilities with radar off. And track radar is invulnerable to arms
Doctrine means nothing in grb. Only time I saw it mean something was latest nuclear thunder at lower br bracket.
Less munition count gets balanced by its quality. What balances sm sv? Lack of fnf is only downside I can think of and its insignificant with all sm sv features.
Yea and when devs reached point where everyone got somewhat same toys (ir/arh multisams) devs, instead of nerfing helis and multipathing, just gave ussr sm sv.
Yes and you get it for 70 sp. While others have to spawn fighters to deal with air efficiently. Or feed heli without any chance to fight back.
Nobody would mind if soviets were stuck with buk, they would also have crappy 70 sp option and would have to use fighters.
Pantsir S1 was fine
maybe could have gotten a small buff and gone up to 12.3
but SM-SV was completely and utterly unneeded. Which 90% of the playerbase most likely agrees on
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?
Any country can do that… I don’t see the point of this comment besides just affirming U.S dominance.
Again… Russian tanks can very well do the same exact thing… this just seems like another comment to affirm U.S dominance and indirectly say Russia is bad in all regards.
Okay… we could suggest the Pantsir S-1E for Germany that the Saudis have on the MAN chassis… but that’s about as far as it gets…
Uneccessary is understandable. But I’ve never seen this fast of a push against an Anti-air then against CAS that has been regining for years. Too me, this is just selective criticsm by the players filled in with “US #1” “everything Russian is bad”.
Y’know, the same people saying they are bolts on the Su-57 and completely defeats the purpose of stealth, when the bolts were actually on a protottype/test aircraft and not on production aircraft.
But we can’t be making those kind of comments around here because it’s going to hurt someones feelings.
Its not. Buk was indeed understandable. So soviets get their multi vehicle analog. Lmurs were understandable. So soviets get fnf heli atgm for ldircm heli. Sm sv wasnt.
…
The point is that Gaijin doesnt give 2 shits about “doctrine” or anything. They regularly hold back other nations for the sake of balance. They dont need to add an SPAA, because russian doctrine is having SPAA that can work on its own. Just as they dont have to add LOAL, because its relevant for western CAS.
No you just dont understand the difference between “i dont like this, because its good against CAS” and “i dont like it, because its good against CAS but only 1 tech tree gets something this good”.
Nobody would mind because the BUK was objectively worse than the IRIST. It was glazed in the test server when people showed off it’s range and speed that it would never see in practical matches.
The effectiveness was only shown when it was put in NuclearThunder, where just like the NATO SAMS, had the room and range to actually execute it’s main role.
Multipathing is a whole differente debate that won’t be solved here, I’ll tell you that much.
You get any SPAA at ANY br for cheap, regardless of it’s efectivness. This is a ground-first mode, not air mode. So there shouldn’t be any exceptions made just because Anti-air is cheap, because if you let a single plane slide by, it changes the course of the match. Or a single helicopter, or a single anything for that matter.
It’s downsides would be present if the maps were bigger. It’s a SHORAD essentially. So you’re going to find a lot less downsides when you press into it’s range.
In comparison to the S-1, which feels dysmal to pick back up. People cn already outroll it’s missles (they do the same thing to ARH SAMS mind you) or force it to proxy on whatever they fire at it. Or essentially run it dry of ammo after a few interactions. Which is part of the reason why the mini-missile was devoloped, so it could stay in the fight longer.
If they added the Tor-M2 which would technically have better missles than the Pantsir, it would also meet the same fate of getting slimed out at close range, seeing it has a deadzone like other AAs and is vertical launch. The Tor can do the same thing with it’s radar as the Pantsir also.
A lot of stuff is objectively worse than other stuff in the game. Russia doesnt automatically deserve the best SPAA just because.
So thats just a lie, isnt it? The SM SV outranges all SPAA despite whats on the statcard except for the BUK i think.
I’d have to double check, but it’s max range for the missile is 40kilometers… I know the CAMM-ER has 45km max launch range.
Well it’s not really automatically deserve, it’s been established their SPAA scales higher because of how the game is designed.
The dynamic changes in Nuclear Thunder, but nobody wants big maps, so it becomes very problematic.
And even if Russia didn’t have the best SPAA–as I said previously, there would be nothing else to add for NATO that would scale effectively against CAS regardless.
Cool, but does the CAMM-ER get to 40km at the same speed as the SM-SV’s missile?
Not every tech tree gets something good or equally good lol. The T-90M/Arena is not considered the best tank in the game by a long shot, but you don’t see anyone pressing that initiative.
So now you’re switching it up–again. First you ask what has the max range, and there are SPAA that outrange the SM-SV, then “Well it can’t reach that distance as fast”. No kidding it can’t, but it has to be within LOS. And most maps don’t have that kind of range or clearance to allow for that.
And nobody hangs at high altitude ethier, SM-SV or normal SAM as that is just much more dangerous across the board.
The range on western SAMs is more meaningful since they don’t have to be within LOS to fire. As long as the radar sees it within an effective range, it can fire, even if the target attempts for cover
Small diffference tho. Thats the SM SV after 36km The Pantsir SM-SV is Simply Too Strong, Russian Bias as Clear as Day - #3315 by kedrigern
And thats a CAMM after 13 The Pantsir SM-SV is Simply Too Strong, Russian Bias as Clear as Day - #3317 by DevilO6
Well how about not adding that new russian SPAA then? You know, just like Gaijin is not adding advanced western CAS weaponry or darts?
Yes that is what im saying but asymmetric balancing still means balancing.
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Balancing for who though is the question? From what you’re saying, the problem is Russia has something that scales better against the rest.
You’ve already said since the west has nothing as good, everybody just has to suffer together? That doesn’t sound like a compromise, that sounds like just let CAS be the way it is. And obviously CAS is going to stay the way it is, especially since they will be recieving more ARMs. So that’s about irrelevant at this point.
Again with the T-90 example, piss poor mobility, but nobody elses tanks is dumbed down in mobility because of it. Or I should say, have been suggested, to be dumbed down.