Except they aren’t.
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M1A1 HC is better than all Soviet MBTs in the game.
Let alone the M1A2 SEPs.
Until Gaijin models mobility more accurately, we’re on the mobility meta.
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They really are though. They can at least eat frontal shots while point clicking at things like the Abrams or any other tank that isn’t a Leopard 2 variant (which then gets the turret ring/breach/LFP treatment) without having the issue of a loader or any system for turret traverse. On top of that, they also get track IRST and HEAT/HE that can overpressure every MBT while being nigh impervious to HEAT due to the ERA plastered everywhere with composite behind it. That’s not including the fact they are fighting tanks decades older than them with modern tech while said tanks are limited in what they get from what they had IRL.
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Not really, as the only thing it has going for it is the fact the dozer will eat some shots from the front. Other than that, it’s exactly like every other Abrams that can be KO’d with autocannons
The russian MBTs are not what makes Russia strong at all at top tier the stupidly strong SPAA, CAS and lights/ BMPTs that are there is what makes their win rates higher.
They’re not impervious at all, i frequently use 120MM HE or 125MM HE from my chinese MBTs to nuke russian ones.
also only the T90M has IRST last i checked
- T80 BVM you can shoot clean through the front of hte turret as @Panther2995 showed me, with most rounds which are over 450MM of pen reliably.
- M829A2 is the single highest penning round in game, outside of the 292.
It has more pen than the DM53 out of an L/44 caliber cannon, meaning if M829A2 was fired otu a longer barrel, it would out pen DM53. - Russian dart the 3BM60 is literally the middling round, Isreal get’s a better round than it at 11.3.
- Russian MBT mobility is properly crap, the T80BVM goes fast forward sure, but 11km backwards.
- T90M has massive weak points all over especially if you’re using m829A2.
The M1A1 HC is effectively the same as the seps bar it’s thermal imager quality, is his point.
USA has 3 abrams which sit at 12.0 that are on par or better than the Leopard 2PL and 2A5 , yet somehow stay below them.
The Abrams have one of the best combinations of firepower, mobility and middling armour in the game which is what makes them so good.
Look at Leclerc for example, you can take out its FCS with a 20mm autocannon round into the huge optics / breach spot.
It’s fuel tanks aren’t modelled as external meaning you go boom when shot.
worse round than the Abrams.
Worse Survivability.
Worse armour.
Yet statistically do better per match? doesn’t make much sense eh.
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You mean the thing they have to use to get the spawn points to use said CAS?
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What 120mm are you using for China that has HE rounds because I know that’s a lie on overpressuring as the M830 only does 29mm of armor penetration for explosive power, where Russian tanks hold no spot to overpressure from with that. I could believe maybe the 125mm as it’s HE goes through 44mm.
Nope, the T-72B3A, T-80BVM, T-72B3, 2S25M, BMPT and BMPT-72 get track IRST (granted the BMPT’s aren’t top tier but they do just fine there too from both fighting alongside and against it). The T-90M is special because it gets a HE-TF for it, which is funny b/c the MPAT got nerfed into oblivion because it was “too strong” but then they get an auto set time fuse with track IRST and over 3 times the explosive mass.
- Cool? It was also entered service in 1994 and was to counter T-72s with Kontact-5. Whereas Russia gets 3BM60 from 2016 which is specifically designed to counter the newest variant of the M1 in service. Penetration doesn’t mean anything if the tanks it’s fighting are literally designed to counter said round, which is what it is in game. It honestly probably wouldn’t feel so BS if 1) the Abrams got its turret ring fixed like what Gaijin accepted two YEARS ago and 2) Russian tanks got their systems added for turret control added like most of NATO has. They somehow can get it right on the BMPT-72 but not the actual tanks its based on? They’re also missing the motor system for the auto loader as well.
While I do agree M322 is better than 3BM60… have you seen the platforms they are on? Literally paper armor. But even then, it’s has same penetration areas as every other NATO round on the T-series tanks that BR. You need to stop looking at just the numbers and how what they fight interacts with it. I mean hell, if that’s your argument, why does the T-90A get 3BM60? Both M332 and 3BM60 ROFLPEN the IMP1 at the same BR. The only tank that’s resistant to those rounds are Russian platforms.
I mean… welcome to knowing the tank. Do you know what Russian armor doctrine even is? Also, what “massive weak points”? It’s the breach, turret ring and LFP, same as EVERY Russian tank because the Heavy ERA and Composite backing, which makes it pretty d*mn hard to kill if the Russian player isn’t just YOLOing through a field like 99% of players (seriously… what is up with players just doing the dumbest things. The T series tanks are bunkers but people want to zerg rush like they’re tyranids in 40k).
- Leopard 2 turret rings works against 30mms, less items to hit on the top of the turret to overpressure the tank with 125mm HEAT/HE, turret angle is steeper so it’s more likely to bounce shots with a far higher effective thickness. It also gets a spall liner, that the Abrams lacks. It also has quadruple the amount of games played compared to the M1A1 HC while also having a better win rate and KD. Welcome to the BS that is Gaijin’s calculation for BR that they won’t release for us to look at.
Name ONE time the extra 5 mph has been a make or break for a game? Sure, it can’t reverse… stop playing like it can. It’s better armored and has a very strong round. As for the Leclerc, does the FCS even do anything yet? It doesn’t say anything in the damage view. The only ones that blew up the Leclerc are the internal tanks in the front and bottom of the tank (unless they’re bugged and in which case need to be fixed). Granted, it shouldn’t as it’s diesel but that’s Gaijin just being lazy on adding a fuel mechanic. Honestly, I really haven’t seen Leclercs being played in game, so I assume that’s more based upon the small population running it just naturally do well. It’s like how the Zeroes keep creeping up in BR. As for why they don’t have OFL 120 F2, I have no idea they haven’t added it.
Germany 6.7 is good but gets trumped by US 6.7 probably best line up in warthunder maybe trumped by France 7.7. The Soviet br 8.3 might trump them all but that is if you have the beast with you and a bit of rng going your way. Mig 15 is also really powerful when added to that combo, I feal top tier is based on who reaches what place on the map first ends up winning the game. It is harder to revers a top tier game than lower tier games. Maybe if gajiin adds at least 3 to 4 new maps things can really change. They dont have to be massive maps but more along the lines of multipath like Vietnam or the European plains with point a b and c being far appart.
I agree with you on that one it is the light tanks that made the bmpt extreemly powerful mbts one shoot it relatively easily. A lot of youtubers use it as a flank vehicle and allow their team mates to make the first moves and during reload they pounce and attack mbts thats how they get the kd ratio really high otherwise if you dont have a team and are facing top tier mbts all the time bmpt is not at all pwerful
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- they can use the god damned lights and IFVs like I mentioned. If you’d read it you’d see that.
- China doesn’t have a 120MM HE at top tier, it’s 125MM HE which can nuke them through the roof.
Cupolas.
You can overpressure cupolas mate.
So the T80BVM and such get IRST, when was taht in november? cause when I last used the T80BVM it did not have IRST.
Also , the IRST without any form of proxy shell is extremely pointless to have, you aren’t going to be shooting much down with it.
However I stand corrected.
The BMPT coincidentally was added, and then the russian winrates shot up, then of course the pantsir as well.
You do realise the Isreali and chinese proxy shells are ridiculously strong as well no?
- 1 it doesn’t matter the service entry date mate it never has for warthunder-
- 2 the point is the M829A2 round is absolutely more than strong enough to take out every top tier tank it comes across.
- 3 russian tanks have very little going for them, hence why their armour / ERA is about all they have.
The BMPT is a complete joke, everyone knows that.
But you’re here not talking about that, you’re here acting like the russian MBTs are some absolutely unkillable death machines, when in reality, the literal weakest point of the russian lineups are the MBTs.
Have I seen them? sir I use them a lot. The Merkava Mk3s at 11.3 with nearly 600 pen are ridiculously strong lol.
“paper thin armour”, You’ve never even used a merkava and yet have the cheek to try comment on them as a platform.
after over 4.3k hours on the game and nearly 10k battles at top tier mate, I’ve more than looked at what they interact and fight with.
Look at the T90S Bhishma, without the 3BM60 it dropped to 10.7, why? because it’s they’re not that good a tank at all.
challangers, Leopards, STRVs the leclercs can also bounce them. As well as chinese MBTs.
american tanks like the M1A1 HC are also nearly frontally immune to the M322 on the turret face bar the breach.
I’ve over 1000 games in abrams alone which this numbre has to be recalculated as I’ve played more games too.
I knwo what they fight and know what they’re capable of lol.
IPM1 has
- better mobility
- M900 which is a solid round
- good optics
- unparraled reload.
that’s what it has in place of raw penetration, IPM1 runs circles around both the Merkavas at 11.3 and the T90A lol.
Also the IPM1 only has slightly better armour than the standard M1, the closest comparison to the T90A and the Merkava Mk3s would be the M1A1 Which only recently moved to 11.7 as it was kerb stomping 11.3 area completely as it has great mobility, 600 pen round, 5.3 expert reload.
so yeah whats the iss ehere.
T80BVM you can shoot through the front of the turret with relative ease BTW.
As @Panther2995 Showed me, I really think more people need to stop crying bout russian MBTs and just learn that most of them are crap and can be one tapped easily.
what position do they get in where you cannot shoot
- turret roof
- turret ring
- breach
- Drivers port
- LFP
there is literally no way for a russian tank to position itself to fire at you, and you not fire back cripple or killing it.
You can still do it lol,
What has quadruple the games of the M1A1 HC?
I mean they’ve been pretty transparent they calculate BRs related to the general performance of the vehicles, hence why teh BMPTs shot up twice and 2 steps at a time.
What are you responding to here.
the extra 5mph on what? the Abrams? compared to the T90M?
the abrams has better turning times, better reverse, also has better forward mobility as well.
What has a very strong round? the 3Bm60 is not a very strong round it’s literally the most middling round at top tier.
yes it stops you being able to use the stab and all that jazz, it also can be crippled I believe with as small as a 0.50 cal.
the fuel tanks which should not be labelled as internal? same as the ones on the abrams or the ones on hte T80s???
most people have generally stopped playing them, myself included they added turret baskets and nerfed the crap out them.
It makes no sense for the M1A2 to sit at 12.0 while a leclerc S1 and S2 sit at 12.7.
Lastly I find it a bit odd you’re here saying these things with barely any top tier experience lol
Completely depemds if the BMPT is out of position or not, if it’s in a good hulldown long range position then it’s pretty hard to get to it and kill it, allies or no.
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So use APFSDS on their weak roofs? It’s the weakspot that stays most consistent on the Russian tanks and any tank with decent gun depression can abuse this to push Russian tanks hiding behind low terrain
That requires the cupolas to be modeled which is not the case with numerous Russian tanks of that tier (T-72)
You can’t just point and click on the Abrams.
But having the issue of subpar reload speed and only three crew.
Such a good advantage considering they can easily be disabled through their curved roofs that offer barely any armor.
Just because something is newer doesn’t mean it’s better. Things aren’t balanced through their date of introduction for a very good reason.
Turret ring, breech and LFP. Depending on the angle even UFP. Literally everthing in the frontal profile that isn’t cheeks.
6 Seconds is the ACE reload for some top tier tanks. You get that for free.
It usually is better. It wouldn’t make sense to make a new model of a tank only to have it perform worse, right?
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They can also use the MBTs… I did read that, it’s a dumb retort as top tier Russian players also use the MBTs.
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Then why did you say “i frequently use 120mm HE or 125MM HE from my Chinese MBTs”?
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Not with the 120mm you don’t, which was the whole discussion point.
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Yeah, part of the 2.51 “Spearhead” update ( War Thunder “Spearhead” - Changelog - Updates - Game - War Thunder). T-72B3, T-72B3A, T-90M, T-80BVM, 2S25M, T-72M2 Moderna, Challenger 2BN, Challenger 3, VT4, VT4A1, MBT2000, Al-Khalid, ZTZ99A, WZ1001(E) LCT, Type-16, Type-16 (P),Type 16 (FPS), Type 90, Type 90B, TKX(P), TKX, Type 10, Merkava Mk.3B, Merkava Mk.3C,Merkava Mk.3D (USA),Ra’am Sagol, Merkava Mk.4B, Merkava Mk.4 LIC, Merkava Mk.4MTD all got it. Not sure why they didn’t also give it to tanks with point track lead capability for balancing purposes but here we are half a year later. Eh, you’re mainly using it against helicopters. The nice part about it is the fact it doesn’t set off Laser Warning Systems like you have to with the Abrams or Leopard to get range. Technically they should as that’s how the system gets range (unless it’s a two sensor system then it uses math but that’s only on things like the Strella).
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What proxy round does China and Israel get? I know Israel gets the M339 and China gets the DTB12-125 but those are both time fuse, same as how the Russia gets the 30F82. I know MPAT is nigh useless as I had to put 4 in a Ka-50 for it to finally go down (all being almost direct hits).
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It should be a factor at least. It isn’t exactly fun to be in a tank from the 80s being slapped by tech from the mid 2010s (same applies to ww2 getting slammed by cold war HEATFS throwers). You can argue that with any round if you hit the right spot… however, the amount of green on Russian tanks v others is significantly less, even when you compare it the other way around. With that argument, 3BM46 is more than enough for Russia then.
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How so? Because they’re 5 mph slower in top speed and suck at reversing? I’ll take that any day seeing how NATO tanks are free food over having fake weak spots and having to snipe a thin turret ring/LFP (if the LFP even gets exposed).
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Funny seeing how I’ve yet to not murder a Merkava first shot from the front except when I’m stuck in a stock tank… Yes, they have very limited protection against KE projectiles in game. Sure as hell didn’t help when Gaijin nerfed the engine block protection. Hell, M735 (at 9.0) will go from the front of the tank out the rear on up to the mid Merkavas whereas M829 punches through the 4M just fine. Idk why you’re acting like I’m wrong about it having piss poor armor against KE, especially at its BR.
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Cool, and I’ve got 3k+ hours. I’ve taken the T-90A into plenty of 11.7+ being limited to 3BM42 and still was getting top 3 in the match so sounds more like skill issue than the tanks being actually bad. I’d take a squadron/premium vehicles with grains of salt for arguments as anybody, both new and veteran, can buy them. I do find it funny looking at your stats and then what you’re arguing about cause outside the M1A2, you’re getting cooked in the both Abrams and Russian MBTs. Also, you have had a total of 7,871 “used in match” Rank 7 and up vehicles. You haven’t had 1000 games in the Abrams, you’ve had 1000+ times of using it. And given the fact you’re either riding the line or negative KD in almost all, I’d take anything you say far from face value.
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Always gotta love the “better mobility” when it’s negligible difference. Moving fast isn’t going to save you from the dart going from the front out the engine block from anywhere at any angle. Is the M18 better than the Tiger then?
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Oh wow, the same turret from a 10.7 tank with no actual ERA setup to protect a good part of the turret is easy to pen at 12.7… who would have thunk. But guess what? Most of the time they’ll survive it while only being breached if you hit high/center or turret ring if you hit it low and then they can still shoot you back. Whereas with NATO tanks, you get cooked because Gaijin doesn’t understand that the blast doors and blow off panels don’t entirely fail just because you put a sub caliber through it and they have the entire turret basket BS.
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Well, I see why your KD is so abysmal. If you’re sitting out in the open and not repositioning, of course they’re an easy kill. ANY tank is. However, they can take far more hits when popping up than other nations and I’ve done that plenty or is my roughly 2.0KD in Russian MBTs just imaginary? I’m not trying to be rude saying this but you just seem to be objectively bad with US and Russian MBTs looking at your stat cards.
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Can, by hitting the ONE object sticking out being the commander’s remote sight. Literally the entire top of the Abrams is an overpressure trap.
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The Leopard 2A5 has 43,596,446 matches v the M1A1 HC’s 12,469,441 matches. Doing the actual math is about 3.5 times but I just did rounding b/c I didn’t care enough at the time to pull a calculator up.
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Not really. They’ll say “it’s overperforming” but that could be anything. I’d argue the T-90A overperforms and is far more capable than where Gaijin put it but it’s somehow with tanks from the 80s. Why? No real idea.
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The mobility argument. And yes, compared to the Abrams. Also, and? Y’all sound like y’all play this game how you would Call of Duty and not as a tank, requiring quick reaction time to respond to other players as you didn’t think about how opponents will move in. It isn’t THAT much of a difference. If that’s the case, the poor British players with the Challangers must struggle.
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Literally the only tank that can tank it head on from most spots in the Challanger and the T90M. Again, stop looking at just pure numbers and compare it to what it fights.
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Oh, that’s pretty bad for the Leclerc then. Also looks like they put the battery as part of the FCS instead of the electrical system. That shouldn’t be how that works in the slightest as that would be like knocking out an optic (which does nothing in game) but again, it’s NATO. As for the fuel tanks, is the one next to the ammo internal to the crew compartment or does it have a bulkhead IRL? I know they’re self sealing but Gaijin doesn’t model that well for planes, much less at all for tanks. It sounds like this poor tank needs a mass of bug reports. Makes sense as to why it doesn’t get that much action in game.
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For real on the BMPT. I took it out for 6 matches, dropped 17 kills. They need to make the ammo one chain that can overpressure the crew. Silly how NATO IFVs with external ammo containers overpressure the crew when hit but not that.
Context there bud, talking about overpressure mechanic. I know dart can punch through it but the argument is about the difference on how RU can overpressure NATO tanks from hitting anything on the top of the tank but the same isn’t possible the other way around.
Soviet trashcanks survive bomb hits, like a lot.
While on NATO tank you need that bomb to hit your MG for that to happen, which is, well, rare.
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Brother… you gotta be pulling my leg. You’re acting like I haven’t been fighting Abrams lately at 11.7 BR range xD
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I mean, stop playing like it’s COD and position yourself better? I hate this “but the reload speed” argument when if you’re relying on a faster reload to win the fight, you’ve beyond messed up. Also, the reload speed increases pretty significantly when you lose either the commander or loader in the Abrams.
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You mean the curved roofs that also bounce shots plenty? Source: both fighting and playing as them.
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Pretending it doesn’t factor though is stilly. If that’s the case, why isn’t the T-90A limited to 3BM42?
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I did get snailed the other day. Put a hellfire through the center of a Leopard 2. HEAT jet went through the front of the hull and out the engine. 0 damage.
Thanks for proving my point.
Only Leopards have 6s reload speed, others are either 5s or lower.
The only RU tank at top tier that has 6s reload speed is BVM and it’s only achievable by using 3BM42, so your general firepower is greatly reduced.
This only makes sense if countries you’re comparing are at equal stages of development and is also heavily dependent on project’s budget.
Two things manufactured in 2020 can have vastly different performance, I thought this was common sense in this day and age.
I don’t really care what you’ve been fighting lately, I’m just stating facts here.
Yeah, I’ll position myself better and quickly pop out of cover and go back in with my RU tanks.
Oh wait…
Reload speed is always important as you simply won’t be getting 1v1s in a vacuum all the time.
I’ve been fighting as them and against them, which is how I know about their roofs being butter to top tier darts.
Because they want T-90A at 11.0 and not 10.7 ?
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