You say that, but we don’t know for sure. Gaijin can just make up any stats, and they won’t disclose any sources or how they tuned this thing; they can make it up to whatever standard of performance they want.
I didn’t say helicopters weren’t a problem, that’s a whole different can of worms to get into.
My point with the LOS was that it’s not hard to break LOS of the Pantsir and most planes in game have weapons that are FnF anyways so they aren’t forced to maintain LOS to use them, they pop up and then dive away.
Because then that will seriously throw off the balance of CAS at that rate if you’re guaranteed a hit without having to maintain sight if they pop up on your radar for just a few seconds.
“Why the hell are you questioning this”
I dunno know, maybe because if that becomes a reality, CAS is going to have to get more things to counter this and the core game design will once again be overlooked in all of this as capibilites are the only focus on everyones mind.
How much more modern capibilites are we going to keep cramming onto these maps until it reaches a breaking point?
This applies to a lot of modern stuff currently added regardless.
I like how the Pantsir SMV damage model is basically OP above the hull
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Okay, that’s a mute point if your idea is to put this as a disadvantage compared to ARH as they suffer from the same exact counter-play? In fact the only way this becomes a particular disadvantage of SACLOS is by removing MP.
As far as we are all concerned, capabilities will continue to increase until Gaijin just runs out of content to add, what you are trying to avoid is inevitable. The whole problem right now is disparity between nations, Russia owns the CAS monopoly, the balance of CAS is already disrupted by the presence of the Pantsir.
Don’t even try? CAS has been a hot topic for a long time my guy. This isn’t just a “It’s only Russia” issue.
If that’s the case for the Sky Sabre, than great, but I don’t imagine this extends to every single sam currently in game.
Isn’t that roughly for 2-3 seconds and the missle can still maunever to a decent degree right after launch so this isn’t a severly limiting factor.
It has relevance in this case because the question is how Gaijin is going to code individual weapons to work differently in a different game mode. That sounds like uneccessary work and changes they make are usually universal. That is the reason I brought Air Rb up.
Gaijin simply doesn’t care about game balance anymore. They give Russia basically a spam fire FNF munition interceptor (because of datalink), with the best SACLOS missile in the game, but it would be too much of a stretch to give typhoons with its 5km effective range Brimstones, an upgrade to even just Brimstone 2 SAL to counter Russian spaa
Playerbase inherently doesn’t care about balance to some degree ethier. Or everything would’ve kept up with eachother over the years instead of the lopsided incrimental upgrades CAS has gotten over SPAA with the progressing years that’s led up to this.
Remember people were asking for HARMS before the multi vehicle sams were even added.
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Doesn’t mean the russian ones weren’t FAR better at the time I was talking about.
SAMP/T can use MICA VL, IRIS-T is IRIS-T…
Much more severe than the NATO definition of VSHORAD of 1km
SAMs don’t share weapons with aircraft. Like at all. In the code a weapon can either be under rocketweapons (for aircraft) or under groundmodel_weapons (for tanks). SAMs with aircraft weapons have duplicate code.
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Yes, I remember that happened when Gaijin introduced the Pantsir S1 as a solution to a problem that didn’t exist. It’s almost like they created the original disparity issue that brought up all of this in the first place.
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I’m not saying they weren’t far better, but just because 1 nation has something far better doesn’t mean the other nations weren’t already in offending territory (because they were, just nobody cared because it was easier to blame Russia than solve the overarching problem)
Maybe I’ll have to look at footage and read some documents, all I’m saying is that a plane within 2kms with a missle that outaccelerates most others is going to hit target before the western SAMS do, and if they really can fire at targets within 1km that effectively (better than an Aim9x we currently have essentially) then alright.
Gotcha.
But then your first statement is hypocritical; most Western SACLOS missiles have been underperforming for ages, most notably Roland 2/3 and VT-1. When OSA was released, it was equipped with a missile that should perform equally to Roland 3 in real life, yet the latter does not. Roland missiles have a tendency to overcorrect and lose energy too quickly, same with VT-1 (Which are rated to 30G for almost 8 and 10 km, but can’t pull more than 12G at that distance in game)
It’s the same situation with Pantsir SM, it received a missile that beats everyone out of the water, and it is seemingly too perfectly implemented while every other Western missile has to deal with inefficiencies that Gaijin won’t address.
Just asking for some parity here, that’s all.
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I wouldn’t say “didn’t exist”, it got to a point where 1 or 2 interactions drained a Pantsirs missle supply before they added ammo crates and even with ammo crates. it was a struggle. Again CAS mains really did not care much about things balance wise, because this trend has gone on for years.
I was referring to ARH missles on current modern SAM systems, We were not actively talking about western SACLOS missles. I know there is a desparity with current western SACLOS missles but comparing the older ones to a modern one of the Pantsirs (which is what happened earlier) didn’t make much sense to begin with so that dropped. The last time I mentioned the western SACLOS missles was in regards to using the radar menu to let them automatically guide. Metaltank was telling me about the SkySabre and IRIST. If we mentioned western SACLOS missles at any time, then let me know. Maybe I didn’t realize or didn’t address it.
You’re asking for parity on something we weren’t actively addressing, but alright. (based on the past most recent convo)
Yes the missle beats everyone out of the water, but you have the games design to blame for that. For such short encounters, of course this missle is going to be the most effecient. What we should be addressing is the games core design and how it needs to change to allow for all modern equipment to be represented properly. In the games current state, most maps just favor the Russian SHORADS.
The Humvee based SAM isn’t a bad pick ethier given it’s medium-to short range capibility (which is what most of these maps give us). It just wasn’t designed to be intercepting munitions.
I have played the Pantsir since introduction and this literally never happened to me until GBU-39s were introduced. When the Pantsir was added to the game some of the best munitions available were TV guided or Laser guided.
The funny thing is, I remember distinctly how back in the day Russia was still dominating CAS because for one the Kamov-50/52 spam was still a thing and they had the MiG-27K which remained for a very long time the best CAS jet in the game with the access to an integrated targeting sight + LGBs (back then that was the CAS meta). TV seekers were pretty damn awful before the somewhat recent contrast improvements, you couldn’t see a damn thing with those monochrome screens. Which is why it was pretty damn controversial for Russia to be the one to get this insane SAM platform out of everyone else.
Of course history repeated with the SM-SV, as recently Russia has been the dominant CAS spammer in top tier and yet again they just add an even better Pantsir.
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Guess you never got the dose of dumb bomb spam, but I agree with you on most of this.
Hell I remember in Air RB those Migs giving me a run for my money in my F-5, it was brutal.
I wouldn’t say so in this instance, since gaijin late 2024 said “the best sam in the game” (The Pantsir) was not able to keep up with the major advancments CAS got during that period and it wasn’t a far fetched statement. Which also meant nobody else was able to keep up with that ethier. That sentence alone should of hinted they were going to drop a new Pantsir variant sooner or later, and there was a whole forum dedicated to that.
But arguing and debating about all this won’t change anything as I keep saying time and time again. I wish more people would advocate for core game design changes rather than be stuck about capibilities of current or past vehicles as those adjustments aren’t going to make much of a difference long-term.
Like you can’t tell me we’re going to go into electronic warfare on these small sized maps since the )closer you are to target the more ineffective it becomes ) and pushing for more and more advanced warfare that people keep saying is “skilless” not realizing that all these advancments are meant to make everything easier, not harder–yet Still want it
While game design is the major fault here, the issue when it comes to Russian AA vs everyone else is that they don’t have any downsides or force any kind of choice.
The 30MM cannons and direct aim launchers means that it can deal with aircraft that are up close, the speed on the 95Ya6M means that it can deal with aircraft at range, the TKBs means that it can easily deal with munitions (especially with 4DL auto-tracking), the Tunguska chassis means that it’s very mobile, it can fire on the move, and it gets smoke launchers (something no other top tier SPAA gets) to fend off incoming missiles that you don’t shoot down, and this is all in a single vehicle, no need to manage launchers and radars. One HUGE advantage as well, in comparison to other top tier AA, is that you can fire without a lock. You can take advantage of this by launching a missile towards the enemy air spawn to be on top of someone spawning in before they can even react.
Every other nation has to make choices on what they can engage, and this choice is even more important because all the other SPAA barely have enough missiles ready to go to engage a single target and their munitions; and none of them get the choice to have protection from other ground vehicles
Yes CAS has almost always had the upper edge in this game, but outside of the SMSV, the only time there was really an ‘effective’ SPAA at top tier was the original Pantsir and then the IRIS-T (which was then quickly met with DIRCM FNF Helis).
I wouldn’t say so in this instance, since gaijin late 2024 said “the best sam in the game” (The Pantsir) was not able to keep up with the major advancments CAS got during that period and it wasn’t a far fetched statement. Which also meant nobody else was able to keep up with that ethier. That sentence alone should of hinted they were going to drop a new Pantsir variant sooner or later, and there was a whole forum dedicated to that.
The original Pantsir has never had issues against existing CAS. It has always been able to swat MAVs down, glide bombs can be avoided by just driving a couple meters away from spawn, the 95Ya6 still remains one of the fastest missiles in the game to deal with anything sitting at range.
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(I agree with most of what you said here, this I just want to tack on)
I don’t quite remember when ammo boxes were added, but before ammo boxes. 1 or 2 interactions would leave you dry and you’re forced to go to a cap that 9 times out of 10 aren’t protected and that’s where it quickly began to fall short if you’re facing a persistent pilot.
After the ammo boxes were added, I’d say it’s effeciency went up greatly, but that thing against FNF helis was a waste of time (or helis that saturated you and you had to choose between killing the heli or nuking the incoming agms), since they just hung around the helipad most times anyways. But I mean according to Gaijin, it had shortcomings for them to give everyone multi-vehicle SAMS. Not that the BUK was even good to begin with.
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Ultimately I would want bigger maps with better design logic, multi-vehicle SAM systems are at particular disadvantage when the map is so small that they can’t hide their vehicles from neither aircraft or tanks.
Gameplay in WT has been at a still point since the game started, nearly nothing has changed it’s the same maps with the same objectives and nobody seems to notice the fact that the game literally encourages spawn killing, it is implied by the map sizes and the tiny spawn protection areas.
Well I have learned that it is unfortunately part of the course of this game to see things introduced without concern for balance. In this topic we tackle the subject of nation bias with the Pantsir. Is it actually Russian bias? I tend to think Gaijin is more attracted to money, I guess Russia just happens to be their biggest cashcow.
Advanced mechanics will be introduced eventually. As of now, from what I understand, your concern about MP being removed from ARH SAMs is about the eventual counters this change would imply, but to that my response is that we should worry about what is broken as of now. I think it would be genuinely a good change to see ARH SAMs become effective against everything even if it’s only for some time, as to me it is painfully obvious that the Pantsir disparity is causing severe issues nation-wise, it is unfair that other nations are forced to mix their AA roster and depend on each other, while Russian players can simply spawn in their Pantsir and deal with everything on their own without any crippling vulnerability.
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This is true. I also think that one of the glaring issues was that CAP is so expensive comparatively at top tier.
Enough points for Fox 3’s to harass CAS jets was enough to buy effective CAS missiles and bombs.
If you don’t have enough points for fox 3’s you are fighting CAS with fox 3’s and also over their AA cover.
It’s ROUGH as a cap player now after the BUK/IRIST patch. There used to be good 1v1 dogfights unlike ARB. The SMSV just makes it so much worse.